22-08-2002 00:08									#1
	$Mini-Game BETA: Trade Thread Remove this text

Once you have acquired your land in this Bid/Join/Play thread you can post here.

Each new turn will begin with the most recent Market Assessment. That will end the previous turn. Winning deals will then go through, and you will be able to post new trades according to the new Market Assessment.

Posts to this thread should have format similar to the following fictional account:

quote: Estate of Lord Guy Rich Turn #: 006 Holdings: Tile 00X, SE Apolyton, Grassland (mine, rd) Stockpile: 0 food, 2 shields, 1 commerce Cash: $40 Debt: -$750 (10% interest, 4 turns remaining on grace period) Buildings: Silo (1/10 completed) Administered by: Lord Guy Rich (*or Banker or Steward) Last turn's completed trades: Purchased 2 shields @ $150 each = -$300 Hired 1 labourer @ $120 = -$120 Sold 2 food @ $63 each = $+126 Sold 1 commerce @ $74 = $+74 Paid debt: -$50 Net cash flow = -$270 --- Production this turn: 2 food, 1 shield, 1 commerce --- Proposed Deals: Hire 2 labourers @$120** each (New D:S = 2:13 = $15) Sell 2 food @ $60** each (New D:S=26:31+2 = $79 ) Sell 2 commerce @$70** (New D:S= 18/21+2 = $78 ) Pay debt: $50

Feel free to cut and paste the above.
Or if this is really too cumbersome and you have a better method, please outline it and if it's more popular, we'll use it instead of this. If anyone knows how to program something simple to do the calculations, go ahead. The adding part is easy, it's the ratios that are a bit tougher.

---
*Note: You may choose to have your trades administered by a BANKER, who will then post for you. The BANKER will likely charge either a flat fee or a percentage of profits. You can arrange that with the Banker (currently Genghis Farb) or any other person who you trust.

**Note: The player is offering higher wages than demand would seem to set the default price at, however, he is anticipating that others will also be hiring labour and that will drive labour costs up. It may be he will have to revise his proposals anyways, but he was estimating from last turn's $120 rate, that he would have to pay something similar by the end of the turn if he wanted to secure the labour he eagerly desires. Note also that he set his selling prices lower than default, in anticipation other rivals will try to undercut him.

So, if you understood all that (it really isn't that complex...), then I hope you enjoy playing!


Who wants to be a millionaire?

	22-08-2002 00:10									#2
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Current Market Assessment:

Turn Number: 1
In Game year: 430 BC
"Special Economic Region": Apolyton, Termina, Tassagrad, BHQ

Total population: 13
Available labour: 13

Food demand: 26
Food supplied: 8+9+6+8= 31

D:S = 26/31 = 84%
Default price = $84


Shield Demand: 6+4+3+3=16
Shield Supply: 6+4+3+4=17

D:S: = 16/17 = 94%
Default price = $94

Commerce Demand: 6+4+3+5=18
Commerce Supplied: 6+5+3+7=21

D:S: = 18/21 =86%
Default price = $86

The default price refers to the selling prices between the fictional market and fictional suppliers assuming no player activity. You, the player, are additional to this. So if you sell products, you'll increase supply and drop the price further. If you buy products, you'll increase the demand and raise the price. Got it? PM me or post in the Join/Bid/Play thread if you want more explanation.

(*Note: The difference between shields demanded and supplied is due to waste. Same idea for commerce. We ignore the effects of beakers for this Beta.)


Check the LATEST trade post for the most current default price (D:S). If you are suspicious of an error, check the previous post and make sure they added properly. THe Government, or Banker, or other person, can do audits too, for a fee. Service isn't free .

Last edited by Captain on 22-08-2002 at 02:51

	22-08-2002 00:29									#3
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

This operates on the honour system. If you feel someone has made an error (purposeful or not), you may perform an AUDIT of their finances. Or you can request the Bank to do so for a fee, if an error is found, the target account will pay the fee instead.

Example: If they have a jungle tile (food only), and somehow their account shows a stockpile of shields, despite not having traded for them... you may wish to investigate.

That is all.

	22-08-2002 00:35									#4
	Re: $Mini-Game BETA: Trade Thread Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

First Attempt:
(In the example, you show the player with 4 food stockpiled yet they have no silo?)

Estate of GhengisFarb
Turn #: 006
Holdings:
Tile 004 Apolyton NW, Grassland
Tile 015 Termina NE3, Jungle
Tile 022 Tassagrad NW, Jungle
Stockpile: 4 food, 0 shields, 0 commerce
Cash: $0
Debt: -$1000 (10% interest, 10 turns remaining on grace period)


Administered by: GhengisFarb


---
Production this turn: 4 food, 0 shield, 0 commerce
---

Proposed Deals:


Sell 3(of 4) food @ $100 each (?????)

Side note to fellow nobles: I am willing to "eat" one of my foods if a few of the other food producers would do the same thus allowing ALL of us food producers to make money without getting into a price war. Let us be civil and prosper together.

	22-08-2002 00:53									#5
	Re: Re: $Mini-Game BETA: Trade Thread Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by GhengisFarb First Attempt: (In the example, you show the player with 4 food stockpiled yet they have no silo?)

no, there was no food stockpiled (i didn't edit the post either). it showed $40 cash though. but the first example was just a fictional one, sorry for any confusion. anyways, i've just corrected a few things in GF's post. Otherwise it's great! And the comments at the end about playing the market like OPEC does... well... we'll see if it holds up to cooperation or whether ruthless competition will prevail!

quote: Estate of GhengisFarb Turn #: 001 Holdings: Tile 004 Apolyton NW, Grassland Tile 015 Termina NE3, Jungle Tile 022 Tassagrad NW, Jungle Stockpile: 0 food, 0 shields, 0 commerce Cash: $0 Debt: -$1000 (10% interest, 15 turns remaining on grace period) Administered by: GhengisFarb --- Production this turn: 4 food, 0 shield, 0 commerce --- Proposed Deals: Sell 3(of 4) food @ $76 each (New D:S = 26/31+3 = $76) Side note to fellow nobles: I am willing to "eat" one of my foods if a few of the other food producers would do the same thus allowing ALL of us food producers to make money without getting into a price war. Let us be civil and prosper together.

Note: As soon as anyone else out there offers to sell food, the price will drop further automatically according to the ratio. See the example on p3 of the Bid/join/play thread. (As expected, food in such plentiful supply will not be very profitable.) Remember, only 26 units of food can be sold to the market (non-players) this turn. Only the first 26 units will be sold in order of increasing price, from lowest to highest.

	22-08-2002 01:05									#6
	Got spare money?

hehe, ok...

The Jungle Gazette Estate:
Turn #001
Holdings:
Tile 013, Jungle NE Termina1
Tile 012, Jungle NE Termina2
Stockpile: 0 food, 0 shield, 0 commerce
Cash $0
Dept: -$450

Administered by: UnOrthOdOx
___

Production this turn: 2 food, 1 Commerce (one jungle is next to river)
----

Proposed deals: Sell 2 food @ $50 (new D:S = 26/31+3+2 = $74)
Sell 1 Commerce @ $75 (new DS = 18/21 +1= $81

	22-08-2002 01:09									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

guess i will try

the Jungle Farm[insert trademark sign here]

Turn #: 001

Holdings:
023 Tassagrad NW10 (jungle)
024 Tassagrad NW11 (jungle)
025 Tassagrad NW12 (jungle)

Stockpile:
0 food
0 shields
0 commerce

Cash: $250

Debt: -$1000 (10% interest, 15 turns remaining on grace period)

Buildings: none. i would start one but i have no shields/commerce/labor

Administered by: jdd2007 for now, but i would like to hire something with a lot of time on their hands.

Proposed Deals:

Sell 2 food @ $60** each

edit: made some changes.

Last edited by jdd2007 on 22-08-2002 at 05:04

	22-08-2002 01:13									#8
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

jdd, I believe workers are only used to change shields into something. Save yourself some ca$h as you have no shields.

	22-08-2002 01:17									#9
	Suffering from ads?

Estate of Captain

Turn #001
Holdings: None
Stockpile: 0 food, 0 shield, 0 commerce
Cash $0
Debt: $0

Administered by: Captain

---
Production this turn: None
---

Proposed deals:
Request approval from taxpayers (51%) for Government Agent Compensation (currently zero compensation):

1) Salary starting at $200 per turn of activity. Will be paid out of earnings from land sales.

OR

2) A 6% commission on all land sales conducted for the government (gov't paid, you don't pay anymore). Applied retroactively for most recent auction.

OR

3) Free available land of choice...

OR

All of the above. j/k

	22-08-2002 01:27									#10
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

just to correct so we get off on the right foot. not trying to be anal, just trying to make it go smoothly. apologies if I'm overbearing.

quote: Originally posted by jdd2007 guess i will try the Jungle Farm[insert trademark sign here] Turn #: 001 Holdings: 023 Tassagrad NW10 (jungle) 024 Tassagrad NW11 (jungle) 025 Tassagrad NW12 (jungle) Stockpile: 0 food 0 shields 0 commerce Cash: $250 (I assume you borrowed 250 on top of the 750 you borrowed for the land to reach your 1k limit) Debt: -$1000 (10% interest, 15 turns remaining on grace period) Buildings: none. i would start one but i have no shields/commerce/labor Administered by: jdd2007 for now, but i would like to hire something with a lot of time on their hands. Production: 3 food (1 from each jungle tile) Proposed Deals: Sell 2 food @ $60** each (New D:S=26:31+3+2+2 = $68 )

Just cleaned it up for you. No charge

	22-08-2002 01:35									#11
	Got spare money?

Now lets see if I follow

Food
Originally
(26/31) or 83% = $83

Then I sold 3 food which meant
(26/(31+3=34) or 76% = $76 x 3 or $228

So then UnOrthOdOx sold 2 and
(26/(34+2=36) or 72% = $72 X 2 or $144

Then jdd2007 sold 2
(26/(36+2=38) or 72% = $68 X 2 or $136

Is this correct?

So those transactions would go through at those dollar amounts IF there was no excess food supplied, if say there was 27 food offered, I being the highest price would only sell 2 at $76 each or $152?

Last edited by GhengisFarb on 22-08-2002 at 01:40

	22-08-2002 01:42									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I think EVERYONES food price drops with the addition of more people, which is why I was kinda guessing at where it would end up with my offer. Otherwise, it just gives advantages to the first person.

	22-08-2002 01:53									#13
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx I think EVERYONES food price drops with the addition of more people, which is why I was kinda guessing at where it would end up with my offer. Otherwise, it just gives advantages to the first person.

Yeah, the earlier bidders have the chance of making more money but if everyone sells they don't make anything as their products are the ones not sold.

I also think you can lower you're offering price.

If we could get some quick clarification on my previous post I think I have some suggestions.

	22-08-2002 01:56									#14
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

No transactions go through until the next Market Assessment (end of one turn, start of another). These are how the marketplace fluctuates during the turn.

Food
Originally (26/31) or 83% = $83

GF offers 3 food
(26/(31+3=34) or 76% = $76

UnOrthOdOx offers 2
(26/(34+2=36) or 72% = $72

jdd2007 offers 2
(26/(36+2=38) or 68% =$68

So.. . the most current default price is $68.
Currently the nobles are selling a total of 7 food. Since that is less than the demand, as long as you sell at $68 or less, you're guaranteed a sale. If you sell higher than $68, you don't get a sale since the consumers will instead "buy" from the default suppliers (where the 31 comes from).

Now, pretend that more people decide to sell food. Pretend an additional 29 units flood the market. Then the new D:S would be 26:31+29 = 26:60 = $43. The default suppliers (where the 31 comes from) never go below default, so if you can sell at or below $43, you'll beat them. But since there's still 29 units offered and 26 demanded, the 3 highest priced units won't be sold.

As UnOrthO said, everyone's default prices drop as supply increases. It's not first come first serve. It's lowest price wins (generally).

Hope that helps.

	22-08-2002 02:00									#15
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

This post is now obsolete. I keep it for the amount of supply and Demand in the thread to remain consistent. The up-to-date post can be found here

Estate of Spiffor
Turn #: 001
Holdings:
Tile 003b Apolyton W, Forest, Road.
Stockpile: 0 food, 0 shields, 0 commerce
Cash: $0
Debt: -$1200 (10% interest, 15 turns remaining on grace period)


Administered by: Spiffor

---
Production this turn: 1food, 2 shield, 1 commerce
---
Proposed Deals:

Sell 2 (of 2) shields @ $75 each (New D:S = 16/17+2 = $84)
Sell 1 (of 1) commerce @ $70 (New D:S = 18/22+1 = $78)

Last edited by Spiffor on 22-08-2002 at 11:52

	22-08-2002 02:01									#16
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

you can always change your offer at any time, not just your offering price. You can even decide to "eat" or "buy back" your own food. of course, this changes things for the other players, so your post cannot simply say "cancel orders", you need to repost your deals so people can know how it affects things.

example:
If GF decides not to sell any food at all, he would change the current D:S = 26 : 31+3+2+2 - 3 = 26:35 = $74 (which raises profits for the other players from the present 26:38 = $68). Obviously GF wouldn't do this because he gains nothing from it, except the goodwill of the other players (whatever that's worth).

	22-08-2002 02:08									#17
	Remove this text

Captain :
I'm the first one to sell shields, and the second one to sell commerce. It was pretty difficult for me to follow what were the already supplied quantities.
I suggest you frequently update your second post in this manner :

quote: Commerce Demand: 6+4+3+5=18 Commerce Supplied: 6+5+3+7+1(Unorthodox)+1(Spiffor)=23 D:S: = 18/23 =78% Default Commerce price = $78

You truly deserve a free land for your hard work. I think there's a wonderful $1500 land with tons of commerce, food and shield available... Go for it !

	22-08-2002 02:20									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Epistan Plantation
Turn #: 001
Holdings:
Tile 009 Termina N, Jungle.
Tile 012 Termina NW, Jungle.
Stockpile: 0 food, 0 shields, 0 commerce
Cash: $0
Debt: -$750 (10% interest starting turn 15)

---
Production this turn: 2 food, 0 shield, 0 commerce
---
Proposed Deals:

Sell 2 (of 2) food @ $55 each (New D:S = 26/38+2 = $65)


(did I screw anything?)

Last edited by Epistax on 22-08-2002 at 02:25

	22-08-2002 02:57									#19
	Got spare money?

"Free" Market update:
Your Market Assessor and Government Agent hard at work for you! Service with a smile .
Market Update sponsored by your local Market Assessor and Government Agent.

Current Food D:S = 26/40 = $65

Current Shield D:S = 16/19 = $84

Current Commerce D:S = 18/23 = $78

Available labour: 13 of 13 (assuming jdd did not hire any)

	22-08-2002 03:42									#20
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Hope I do this right... (Just to check -- I hope my math is right; grassland with mine and road produces three food, one shield, one commerce, right?) If anything in the following deal is wrong, I probably made a mistake, and let me know .


Estate of adaMada
Turn #: 001
Holdings:
Tile 005 Apolyton NW, Grassland
Stockpile: 0 food, 0 shields, 0 commerce
Cash: $0
Debt: -$1200 (10% interest, 15 turns remaining on grace period)


Administered by: adaMada


---
Production this turn: 2 food, 1 shield, 1 commerce
---

Proposed Deals:

Sell 2 (of 2) food @ $65 each
Sell 1 (of 1) shield @ $84 each
Sell 1 ( of 1) commerce @ $78 each

Have to go right now, but if nothing has posted by the time I get back I'll post new prices.

Last edited by adaMada on 22-08-2002 at 04:38

	22-08-2002 03:42									#21
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Is the minimum labor rate $100, cause that's kinda steep considering the cheapest you build a inn for would be $4000 NOT including shields.

Oh, and aadaMada, grassland only produces 2 food. Unless I'm mistaken the only people producing more than two food are jdd2007 (3 food) and me (4 food).

(I actually made a chart with all owned land to compute exactly how much of everything could be sold. Currently, the players could produce a maximum of 29 food meaning in a worse case scenario someone gets stuck with 3 food-market will only buy 26.)

Last edited by GhengisFarb on 22-08-2002 at 03:47

	22-08-2002 03:46									#22
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

GF, $100 base rate

if you are the only one hiring, that's 1/13 =6.6%.
6.6% of 100$ is only 7$ rounded to nearest dollar.
that's pretty cheap.
of course, that assumes no one else is hiring.

i'm sure you can work something out with your fellow nobles.

	22-08-2002 03:51									#23
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

EDIT: Took offer off table until kinks worked out.

Last edited by GhengisFarb on 22-08-2002 at 04:02

	22-08-2002 03:53									#24
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by GhengisFarb Oh, and aadaMada, grassland only produces 2 food. Unless I'm mistaken the only people producing more than two food are jdd2007 (3 food) and me (4 food). (I actually made a chart with all owned land to compute exactly how much of everything could be sold. Currently, the players could produce a maximum of 29 food meaning in a worse case scenario someone gets stuck with 3 food-market will only buy 26.)

You're totally right, my screw-up, fixed in my post now (glad it was caught before it had any real affects on the game ).

Is that chart in a postable form? It might be interesting to see what it looks like, if it's not too much trouble...

-- adaMada

	22-08-2002 03:58									#25
	Suffering from ads?

adaMada,

quote: Sell 3 (of 3) food @ $65 each (under despotism, it's only 2 food, sorry) Sell 1 (of 1) shield @ $84 each Sell 1 ( of 1) commerce @ $78 each

These aren't confirmed deals. these are just your offers. so you don't get any cash, yet.

aslo, when you offer deals, you need to update the D:S. that way the latest post will always have the most curent prices, and no one has to go hunting for them. We each put in a little effort and the whole thing will go smoothly. Otherwise, someone has to continually monitor this thread and update - which is fine if someone can, I can't. I'm just monitoiring the start up until we've got a regular rhythm going.


So... (from most recent post's D:S plus adaMada's in bold)

New Food D:S = 26: 40+2 = 26:42 = $62
New shield D:S = 16:19+1 = 16:20 = $80
New commerce D:S = 18:23+2 = 18:24 = $75


next person to post deals should update the above D:S, just like I did. it's not that hard, just add your supply to the supply total and your demand (if any) to the demand total. calculate new ratios. that's the new default price. anyone selling below the default prices at Market's closing (turn end) is almost guaranteed they'll sell.

alright? hope this helps.

	22-08-2002 04:07									#26
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by adaMada You're totally right, my screw-up, fixed in my post now (glad it was caught before it had any real affects on the game ). Is that chart in a postable form? It might be interesting to see what it looks like, if it's not too much trouble... -- adaMada

Well, I might share my calculations if could get enough food producers to agree to the following. We have 3 excess food, we need to make a rotation where each turn 3 people hold back one food each. Then we can all sell at the maximum price, EVERYBODY makes money.

jdd2007 and I have already agreed to give up one food each this turn, if we can get several more people on the system we should be able to pay our loans back before having to pay interest, assuming you don't build anything.

If you want to be a part of this simply post:

"I wish to join the Osiris Food Cartel"

	22-08-2002 04:20									#27
	Got spare money?

Remember, the collateral for your loan is the property you now own! Don't default on your interest payments! Reduce that debt rightaway!

Despite having no overall time limit for repayment (you could just pay the per turn interest rate indefinitely), I remind you that purchasing new tiles is strictly prohibited to those with outstanding government debts.

This message brought to you by your local Government Agent, working for YOU!

	22-08-2002 04:34									#28
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Holding back food right now works for some, but not others. I make 2 food a turn. So if I hold one back, the price of food has to double for me to break even

	22-08-2002 04:37									#29
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Captain adaMada, These aren't confirmed deals. these are just your offers. so you don't get any cash, yet.

Ohh, ok. Sorry for the confusion .

quote: aslo, when you offer deals, you need to update the D:S. that way the latest post will always have the most curent prices, and no one has to go hunting for them. We each put in a little effort and the whole thing will go smoothly. Otherwise, someone has to continually monitor this thread and update - which is fine if someone can, I can't. I'm just monitoiring the start up until we've got a regular rhythm going. So... (from most recent post's D:S plus adaMada's in bold) New Food D:S = 26: 40+2 = 26:42 = $62 New shield D:S = 16:19+1 = 16:20 = $80 New commerce D:S = 18:23+2 = 18:24 = $75

I know, and I apologize for not updating it when I posted the thread... I did plan to come back and add it in now, but I'm sorry all the same, and perhaps I shouldn't have posted at all if I didn't have time to do the necessary 'other stuff'... my apologies.

quote: next person to post deals should update the above D:S, just like I did. it's not that hard, just add your supply to the supply total and your demand (if any) to the demand total. calculate new ratios. that's the new default price. anyone selling below the default prices at Market's closing (turn end) is almost guaranteed they'll sell. alright? hope this helps.

Yes, I see.

Again, very sorry for not doing what I should have... I won't make that mistake again.

-- adaMada

EDIT: Nevermind about the fraction. Looking at the examples above, it's clearly rounded to the nearest whole $.

EDIT again: One question. If we want to change the price that we sell our food at, what should we do? Edit our post, or make a new one noting the change?

	22-08-2002 05:31									#30
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

adaMada, sorry if I sounded harsh. I understand that it's a bit confusing. hope it doesn't detract from your playing experience in the $Mini-game. the only reason jumped on it so quick was in case someone else came along, and posted their offers based on faulty info. it'll all be smoothed out soon. I guess this is why we have our beta, to iron out wrinkles,