23-08-2002 03:47									#91
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former ministers should get at least a small pension.

	23-08-2002 03:51									#92
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Kramerman's Brothel Ranch
Turn #: 002
Holdings: Tile 029, SW BHQ, Grassland (mine, river, road)
Stockpile: 0 food, 0 shields, 0 commerce
Cash: $0
Debt: -$1500 (10% interest, 14 turns remaining on grace period)

Administered by: Pimp Daddy Kman

Stockpile:
0 food
1 shields
2 commerce


Last turn's completed trades:
---
Production this turn: 2 food, 1 shield, 2 commerce
---

Proposed Deals:

Sell 2 of 2 food @ $50 each (New D:S=28:36+2= $74 )
Sell 2 of 2 shields @ $60 each (New D:S = 18/21+2= $78)
Sell 3 of 4 commerce @ $60 (New D:S = 20/24+3= $74)

EDIT: Am i doing this right? any help would be much appreciated.

	23-08-2002 04:02									#93
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4) I will bid $80 for
>>>>>>>>>007 Apolyton NW12 (Mined grass rd) $80

3) I will bid $80 for
>>>>>>>>>016 Tassagrad N (Mined grass rd) $80

2) I will bid $80 for
>>>>>>>>>020 Tassagrad SW (mined grass rd) $80

1) and $75 for
>>>>>>>>>019 Tassagrad S (grass rd, mine?) $75

EDIT: I dunno if there is a limit. If there is, my priorities are numbered, depending on the limit.

	23-08-2002 04:02									#94
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The following people are entitled to salaries.

Ministers@$150: Togas, Uberkrux, Donal Graeme, Apocalypse, Will 5001, Whitebandit, Godking.

Deputies@$100: Spiffor, Aggie, OPD,jdjdjd, Rendelnep, Darkness' Edge, Gepap, adaMada

Newspaper Editor@$80: UnOrthOdOx
Co-Editor @$60: Donal Graeme

Judges@$55: Captain, notyoueither, Epistax, jdjdjd, Trip.

TOTAL SALARIES = 7*150 + 8*100 + 80 + 60 + 5*55
=1050 + 800 + 140 + 275
=2265

These may increase once the Government's financial position improves.

Those receiving multiple salaries add them together and receive them both/all.

EDIT: Salaries are provisional, and may not be paid until ratified by poll, and until the government has sufficient money to pay them.

Last edited by sc369 on 23-08-2002 at 05:44

	23-08-2002 04:05									#95
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Isnt that a little much for a salary per turn? I dunno, it just seems like alot.

	23-08-2002 04:07									#96
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it does seem like a lot. one question: how does a *deputy* make almost twice what a judge does?

also, how about $5-50 per turn for retired ministers?

	23-08-2002 04:22									#97
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So who thinks judges' salaries should be raised? I have assumed that the general work burden of a judge is lower than that of a deputy - am I wrong?

The salaries are not that high, really. Most of you lot made over $200 last turn - and that's only going to go up, when you get more tiles.

By (obviously unbiased) request of jd2007, retired ministers are awarded a pension of $10/turn - but these will have to be claimed individually, and non-claimed pensions will not be paid. Multiple former posts will still only result in one pension.

	23-08-2002 04:29									#98
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Why do deputies get paid anything?
What if salaries weren't every turn?

code:

Epistan Plantation, Turn 2.  Admin: Epistax
Holdings: 
     Tile 009, N Termina, 1/0/1
     Tile 012, NW Termina, 1/0/0
Buildings:
     N/A
Stockpile: 0+0 food    0+0 shields    0+0 commerce
Production:  2 food      0 shields      1 commerce
Cash Change: +$100
     100     Transactions
     55      Salary (Justice)*       
     0       Tax (Phew) *Subject to change
Current Cash: $80      Debt: -$750 (Interest @ turn 15)
Selling:
     2 Food  @ $50/ea
     0 Shld  @ N/A/ea
     1 Comm  @ $60/ea
New D/S:
     Food: 28/28+2    = $70
     Shld: 18/23+0    = $78
     Comm: 20/27+1    = $71

Last edited by Epistax on 23-08-2002 at 05:56

	23-08-2002 04:30									#99
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ok. wont lobby for pensions anymore.

	23-08-2002 04:34									#100
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There is no limit on leases of Govt. land - though competition for leases may drive up the prices.

Just to clarify on taxation, everyone; you are all, from this turn onwards (Turn 2), paying 10% of the value of your land, which will (until Turn 16) be considered to be the price that you paid for it. So Kramerman, you must pay $150 tax this turn, and jd2007 must pay $100. Taxation is borne by the OWNER of the property; thus, Civman2000 has to pay $100 even though his property is being run by Ghengis; he may well want to renegotiate his deal. This means that leasers of Government land pay NO TAX - an added incentive.

The tax may seem harsh, but you did get a very good deal on the loan, and the land cheaply. You'll still be able to make a fair amount of money.

EDIT: Due to feedback, taxation has been delayed until it can be ratified by poll at a later date.

Last edited by sc369 on 23-08-2002 at 05:45

	23-08-2002 04:39									#101
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what? we should get at least 10 turns without taxes. who died and made you god/tax collector?

	23-08-2002 04:41									#102
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That is extremly harsh. So I pay $75 a turn on land I don't own yet (loaned until I can pay), which earned me $100 last turn?

	23-08-2002 04:42									#103
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Deputies do a fair amount of work sometimes; for example, OPD is governor of a whole region. Most deputies are highly active in the forums.

I agree that the tax is high - maybe too high. I'm just trying to get the government into a position to start paying salaries. You could think of the taxation as being instead of interest charged on the loan. You're all still in profit - it just means that you may not be all out of debt by the end of 15 turns.

If you're worried about having insufficient profit, you might like to think about leasing some of the Govt. land available - which is exempt from tax, and should more than pay its way, if the prices stay at the default.

Should I cut tax to 5%? That would be less drastic - but that would leave the State with not very much cash per turn.

Let me know what you think.

Last edited by sc369 on 23-08-2002 at 04:52

	23-08-2002 04:54									#104
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I'll say this in such a way that it helps the most

The justice has biweekly meeting (2 a week, not every 2 weeks) which typically last over two hours with log sizes that rival turnchats.

	23-08-2002 04:58									#105
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5% is less drastic, but I say we should have a grace period. I mean, if I had warning before the game began, I could of planned my strategies around it, but it just being thrusted upon us just throws everything I was thinking about off. A grace period of sometime would help offest this, and allow me to rethink. With school i havent the time I used to to spend on the forum, so I cant think about this to much.
Thanks

Kman

	23-08-2002 05:17									#106
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quote: Originally posted by sc369 Government Land Agent Turn 2 Declaration (In default of other applicants, I am governement agent for now, unless anyonw objects, or someone polls an election; I suggest Turn 15 would be a good time for one.) Captain has decreed that the State should not produce. Therefore State land is open to LEASING. The State owns the following tiles, and will lease them for 14 turns for the following amounts of money, payable PER TURN. If there is competition for leases, the highest bidder will be favoured. 007 Apolyton NW12 (Mined grass rd) $80 010 Termina NE (Mined grass rd) $80 016 Tassagrad N (Mined grass rd) $80 017 Tassagrad NE (jungle) $20 019 Tassagrad S (grass rd, mine?) $75 020 Tassagrad SW (mined grass rd) $80 022 Tassagrad NW (jungle) $20 027 BHQ NE (jungle) $20 028 BHQ S (jungle) $20 030 BHQ W (mined grass river) $120 031 BHQ NW (mined grass river)$120 The deadline for leases closes at 12:00 GMT on Saturday. The following salaries have been provisionally set: Ministers: 150$/t Deputies: 100$/t Newspaper Editor: 80$/t Paper Co-Editor 60$/t Judges 55$/t Army Pay: currently 0 (thank God for Despotism!) Should others be included? Are these salaries reasonable? Feedback please. The Government currently has no cash, so salaries will not be paid for the moment. Salaries may be paid when the Government acquires sufficient money. Only Public Officials acknowledging their claim to the salary in the Mini Game forums will be considered. (The money still disappears from the treasury, though, as they still have to be paid.) TAXATION by self-assessment (see other thread) will not be carried out until Turn 16. For now, taxation will be at 10% of initial land cost. Taxation will therefore stand at $1390 per turn for the next 14 turns. (Edited for taxation figures and clarification on salaries.)

1: Tax levys have to be approved by 51% of the players.

2: Provisional salaries are unnessary as there is already a poll to determine what they should be.

3. The Government currently has $13,900 from the auction proceeds.

4. I never got any paperwork on you, and have thus not added you to the payroll, so until someone tells me otherwise I'm not giving you a paycheck.

5. All of this discussion should be in the discussion thread NOT the transaction thread. Any taxes/new options should be introduced in the Market Assesment that begins the trading session.

	23-08-2002 05:18									#107
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I've been working out the numbers and I think that even 10% should leave most people fairly well off.

Epistax, you (if you sell everything) will make $160 this turn, leaving a profit of $85 after tax. At this rate, you will pay off your debt in nine turns. So the government has still basically been giving you free money with the loan. Likewise, Kramerman, you will potentially make $400 this turn; even without your stockpiling you would make $280, leaving a clear profit of $130 after tax. You will pay off your debt in a maximum of 12 turns if all goes smoothly - less if business ventures go to plan. Anyone who receives a salary will be doing very well.

The more money the government has, the more likely it is to offer land cheaply for sale, and the higher salaries it can pay.

I will raise judge salaries to $70 and decrease deputies to $80. Is that OK?

I realise the introduction of taxation was a bit abrupt for everyone, and I'm certainly willing to scrap/reduce/delay it if that's what everyone thinks would be best. I do think, however, that it's best to try and start things off the way they're going to continue, so we get into a rhythm. If necessary, no interest loans canl be extended at the next auction.

Does anyone else have any feedback?

Thankyou all for your patience with a newcomer to the minigame.

EDIT: Taxation is now being deferred until a poll can be held on the subject.

Last edited by sc369 on 23-08-2002 at 05:42

	23-08-2002 05:31									#108
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On taxation: I think 10% is way too much, especially since we still have loans hanging over our heads. Also, at the least, there should be no taxes this turn, since no one knew there would be any and didn't get to plan their trades accordingly. (And, as Kman pointed out, we didn't get an opportunity to bid on land accordingly.) I think we should hold off taxes for at least another eight turns or so, so that we get a total of at least ten tax-free turns.

Anyway... my plans will be posted shortly.

	23-08-2002 05:35									#109
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Ghengisfarb:

Captain posted this in the other thread. I know he didn't have any 'official' authority, but he was the previous Land Agent, and he seemed to be running a lot of things throughout the minigame (with, of course plenty of feedback and leadership by consensus), so I thought it was OK for me to take on the job, and with a suitably broad frame of reference.

quote: sc369, you want to be the Land Agent? It's a bit of work, but if you get compensation, it could be worthwhile. the Land Agent can do more land deals but doesn't have to until another 16 turns. but if you're the one in charge, you can do whatever you like - except obviously not purposely screwing over the government

I thought a bit more activity from the Land Agent would liven things up a bit. If you want to hold elections for the post, go ahead - I'm on holiday from tomorrow onwards, which is one reason I was trying to get things sorted and running smoothly relatively quickly, so it might be a good idea anyway.

Re cash: As I understand it, no-one actually gave the government any cash. The government lent everyone non-existent money, without interest - effectively letting them have the land now, and pay later. This means that all landowners now owe money to the government. Thus the government will have $13900 in Turn 15 when the loans fall due, but currently has no money.

As for salaries, there are currently polls for 'in-game' roles like banker and agent, but none for out of game roles. Obviously a quick poll for salaries is a good idea - but I thought that introducing them early on would have a good effect on feedback.

I'm very sorry if you feel I've been muscling in or trying to take over - it's just the concept caught my imagination and I thought it would be fun to get involved. Obviously everything I've suggested is open to modification or outright cancellation: it is, after all, the 'Civ3 Democracy Game'.

	23-08-2002 05:37									#110
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Ok I agree- 10% isn't too high.

I am among those wondering who died and made you.. uhh.. you.

	23-08-2002 05:40									#111
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TAXATION

The introduction of taxes has been felt by several people to be too extreme and/or abrupt, so taxation will be delayed until a later date when it can be ratified by a poll of mini-game players, or chucked out entirely. Apologies for any trouble this has caused. Previous posts will be edited.

Government leases will stand for the time being.

	23-08-2002 06:15									#112
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Typically we discuss concepts in the other thread but it appears we may have alraedy killed this trading session.

I was under the impression this was a community game but as Captain has apparently deeded all ownership and control to sc369 I guess we are at his mercy.

So, the poll for compensation is dead, the suggestions for buildings are dead, and apparently I'm no longer tracking market transactions..........

	23-08-2002 06:33									#113
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He was only trying to help. Granted he should have started a discussion rather than simply declaring it. But I don't see how the session has been killed; the trades can continue.

Besides, I think Captain declared a change to the silo building unilaterally, without any discussion (unless it went on by PM, in which case he still could have proposed it to the forum in general). But you didn't see any complaints, from me or anyone else. Perhaps because it was advantageous to us all, unlike taxes?

Don't get me wrong, taxes definitely need a discussion and a poll. And the salary poll should stay and its results should be heeded. But what say we try to fix this trading session instead of killing it in disgust?

	23-08-2002 06:39									#114
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"Estate" of Kloreep
Turn #: 002
Holdings: Tile 006, NW11 Apolyton, Bonus Grassland (mine, rd)
Stockpile: 0 food, 0 shields, 0 commerce
Cash: $298
Debt: -$1400 (10% interest, 14 turns remaining on grace period)
Buildings: None

Administered by: Kloreep

---
Production this turn: 2 food, 2 shield, 1 commerce
---
Proposed Deals:

Sell 2 of 2 food @ $60 each (New D:S=28:40+2 = $67 )
Sell 1 of 2 shields @ $68 (New D:S=18:23+1 = $75 )
Sell 1 of 1 commerce @ $63 (New D:S= 20:28+1 = $69 )
I bid $7 for one laborer to convert a shield to the beginnings of a silo. (New D:S=1:14 = $7)

	23-08-2002 06:48									#115
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OFFICIAL ANNOUNCEMENT

All members/players should note that sc369 is not the Government Agent, and all declarations made by sc369 have no affect on this trading session. The member is, however a candidate for Government Agent and anyone else who wishes to run for the position should PM me that they wish to do so. At the close of this trading session we will halt trading sessions until a new Government Agent is elected.

Compensation rates for $Mini-game personnel are being decided by the Official $Mini-game poll. I will act as Government Agent until we get one duly elected.

And if anyone wants to know who died and made ME god....

quote: Originally posted by Captain Also, for those involved in the $mini-game beta, thank you for participating. Please continue to play it out, shaping it, and fixing and improving it as you go. It's your baby now. I hope you have fun. I'll post the next Market Assessment tomorrow (ends turn1, starts turn 2) and then I'll need a replacement for that job too. Remember, GhengisFarb is a banker who will ensure trades go smoothly. If you have any questions and I'm not available, you can count on him to help you out. But of course, there will be questions no one has solved yet, and that's where we've got to work together. All the best, Captain

NOW, all posts in this thread should relate to the trading session, posts relating to positions in the $Mini-game or changes in $Mini-game rules and options should be posted in the $Mini-game concept thread.

I will not hesitate to enforce the last paragraph with the assistance of Apolyton Site Moderators.

This concept is too good to allow it to be killed by someone who just joined the Democracy Game less than an hour ago.

	23-08-2002 08:31									#116
	Remove this text

Estate Jonny
Turn #: 002
Holdings: Tile 003a, Apolyton SW, (Forest, Road)
Stockpile: 0 food, 2 shields, 1 commerce
Cash: $0
Debt: -$1200 (10% interest, 14 turns remaining on grace period)
Buildings: None

Administered by: Jonny

---
Production this turn: 1 food, 2 shields, 1 commerce
---
Proposed Deals:

Sell 1 of 1 food @ $50 (New D:S = 28:42+1 = 28:43 = $65 )
Sell 3 of 4 Shields @ $50 (New D:S = 18:24+3 = 18:27 = $67 )
Sell 2 of 2 Commerce @ $50 (New D:S = 20:29+2 = 20:31 = $65 )

	23-08-2002 08:32									#117
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code:

Estate of GhengisFarb 
Turn #: 002 
Holdings: 
Tile 004 Apolyton NW, Grassland 
Tile 015 Termina NE3, Jungle 
Tile 026 BHQ N, Mountain 
Stockpile: 0 food, 0 shields, 0 commerce 
Civman2000 Estate (currently renting)
Stockpile: 2 food, 1 shield, 1 commerce
Cash: $200 
Debt: -$1000 (10% interest, 15 turns remaining on grace period) 

Administered by: GhengisFarb 

--- 
Production this turn: 3 food, 1 shield, 0 commerce 
Civman2000 Estate (currently renting) 
Production this turn: 2 food, 1 shield, 1 commerce 
--- 
Proposed Deals: 

Sell 5(of 5) food @ $44 each (New D:S = 26/48 = $58) 
Sell 2(of 2) commerce @ $46 (New D:S = 20/39 = $51)
Hire 3 labor for Apolyton at $29 each (New D:S = 4/14 = $29)

	23-08-2002 08:38									#118
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Genghis, you may want to check your new D:S figures, I believe you have made some errors. (Be sure to look at my post above yours.)

	23-08-2002 08:38									#119
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I've been busy sleeping on the bench. Can someone explain to me what my lands have generated?

001 Apolyton N (horse, grass, rd).

Thanks.

	23-08-2002 08:40									#120
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code:

Epistan Plantation, Turn 2.  Admin: Epistax
+Update+
Selling:
     2 Food  @ D:S/ea
     0 Shld  @ N/A/ea
     1 Comm  @ D:S/ea
D/S Unchanged