26-08-2002 20:51									#31
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quote: Originally posted by GhengisFarb No not really. If it wasn't for the fact that nobody woud support me, I'd just start my own version of the mini-game with a more effective supply/demand market and building options. Course, I'd want to add a variation of the Estate building where you could give commerce to the people for Prestige. The more Prestige you had the higher your rank: Baron, Earl, Count, Duke, etc. Maybe limit the total amount of land you could own to your rank. That way if you wanted to expand your territiries you'd have to work on increasing your prestige so that you could have the ability to buy more land.

I think some of us are just trying to figure out what is going on as it is. The turns were played too fast to start with. Why do you think YOU run 5 estates? Because we are not interested? No. It moved too fast. Those of us interested in the actual game were left behind or had our items sitting around stockpiled. How can we therefore want changes if we don't know what is going on as it is? This was started out badly. It is a beta after all. Slow down the turns a bit. Do that, and I may even try to control my own land. Let those of us who are a bit slower, or are busy with other things catch up to you who have immersed yourself into this. At one time you had 5 threads on page one, I could not even TRY to keep up with the conversations while running everything else at the same time. Just give it time and don't get frustrated.

	26-08-2002 21:00									#32
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I am currently making the thing that takes 2 food, and makes it sell at 50% more. Initially it was to improve my income from 133 a turn to 177, but now supply and demand has killed our economy. It costs ten shields.
Shields: About 60 each. Labor: 29 each. 890$ approx. It will go way up if anyone else decides to make anything, as any movement in labor is a huge change. I might be forced to stop. and just try to pay off my loan. The way it's working of I waste all my money on the production which doesn't get done, I wont have enough income to pay the interest to my loan.


Everything would be so much simpler with PHP, or a program. You log in, it tells you DS's. You say what you are doing, it updates DS's. It emails you if you are too high/low for ds, or bidding war, etc.

	26-08-2002 21:04									#33
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Epistax Everything would be so much simpler with PHP, or a program. You log in, it tells you DS's. You say what you are doing, it updates DS's. It emails you if you are too high/low for ds, or bidding war, etc.

What's PHP? I'd love to have someplace we could log in and let the computer figure everything out.

	26-08-2002 21:08									#34
	Increase Your PM Length

PHP is a scripting tool, ideally used with mysql databases. It's read like normal HTML. This msgboard is probably PHP. It's almost the C language, and lets you do pretty much anything.

It can be abused, however. We also would have no way to securely do transactions.

Unless we don't mind using unencrypted passwords.

	26-08-2002 21:55									#35
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by GhengisFarb No one seems eager to introduce buildings into the game.

I was quite sure your proposal about the buildings was accepted. The last time I looked at it most people voted for them. I even wrote the specifications of the bakery assuming the other buildings would come on-line also. Just looked at the poll again to be sure and noted there were 37 voters. That is about three times as many as there are playing in the game. It looks like many non-players voted too and killed the proposal. Do we want that? There is a positive thing in all this: it shows there is quite some interest in the game.

In the bakery proposal I explicitly asked non-players not to vote and it seems they dit not (6 votes, 6 in favour) but you never can be sure of course.

What I learned from the remarks of Epistax and Unorthodox is that we went to fast indeed. I suggest we slow down and solve the issues that were addressed sofar and then continue.

	26-08-2002 22:51									#36
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Later today I'm going to post an alternate Market System (After I get home and double check some numbers).

I would really like to use it for the next trading session for several reasons:

1)If it turns out to really suck we can go back to the old system with a newly found respect for how good it is.

2)If it's better we can keep it and ditch the old system.

3)It might have elements that work better and we could conceivably make a hybrid of the two.

	26-08-2002 23:06									#37
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Sounds good to me. I was already trying to define a simple alternative that offers an integrated solution. I will post that soon and then we can compare and discuss with the nobles. I think we should keep the changes to a minimum, concentrating only on the current issues. Otherwise we get similar but different problems and will not make progress.

	27-08-2002 00:27									#38
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In the latest trade thread every noble posted a proposal. I think this means we all enjoy the game. But this is a Beta and we stumbled upon three basic problems:

1. Demand/Supply
Spiffor started a thread that discusses this problem and suggests solutions.

2. Buildings
Many of the buildings proposed were rejected by a poll. Only the bakery seems to make it. We do not know exactly what the reasons for rejecting those buildings were.

3. Trade proposals
Several nobles (see for example above posts) pointed out that the current system favors those that have the time to alter their deals just before closure. Epistax also pointed out in above posts that it is possible to influence pricing without any risk to the noble doing it.

I have been thinking about these issues and try to provide an integrated solution. My aim is to remain as close as possible to the current system to avoid introducing new problems.

1. Demand/Supply
I propose to keep the current Demand/Supply system.
The existing problems can be solved by enabling the nobles to influence the supply chain. This is realized by defining buildings that convert food and commerce into other commodities. Many of the other proposals will fail if more land is auctioned to new players adding more supply to the process.
Short term problems will remain, so I suggest to provide one storehouse (see below) for free to all nobles. With it they can anticipate on what will happen if the conversion buildings come on-line.

2. Buildings
IMO, the main reason for the rejection of the proposed buildings was the cost. The payback time was just too high (see also my post in this thread and Epistax/UnOrthOdOx analysis in above posts. I suggest the following buildings (most of them equal to the original proposal of GhengisFarb):

STOREHOUSE (Costs 2 shields/labor) stores up to 20 commodities (including food).

TAVERN (Costs 3 shields/labor) allows you to sell up to 2 food per turn at a 50% bonus.

SHOPPE (Costs 3 shields/labor) allows you to sell up to 2 commerce per turn at a 50% bonus.

SMITHY (Costs 4 shields/labor) allows you to sell up to 2 shields per turn at a 50% bonus.

BAKERY (Cost 10 shields/labor) converts upto 2 food into 2 bread (1 food into 1 bread).
The default price of bread is $100.
Bread can not be stored.
Demand of bread is equal to the population of the city the bakery is build in.
Supply of bread is equal to the population of the city the bakery is build in.
Market assessment D:S = 100% = $100
The city a bakery is build in must be specified

BANK (Cost 10 shields/labor) converts upto 2 commerce into 2 loans (1 commerce into 1 loan).
A loan can not be stored.
Demand of a loan is equal to the population of the city the bank is build in.
Supply of a loan is equal to the population of the city the bank is build in.
Market assessment D:S = 100% = $100
The city a bank is build in must be specified.

3. Trade proposals
I refer to my earlier post in this thread regarding this issue. The solution is generalized and is:

The nobles specify the amount of the commodity they want to sell/buy and their minimum/maximum price. The price they receive will be equal to the calculated D:S unless D:S is lower/higher than the minimum price in which case the commodity is not sold/bought.

Advantages:
1. Solves the problem of unacceptable price influencing as described by Epistax
2. Nobles only need to specify their deals once
3. System is fair to people that do not have the time to visit the forum at the end of the turn
4. The banker has a lot less work
5. D:S has to be calculated at the end of the turn only
6. Turn may close before the pre-specified time (as soon as all nobles have posted).

I appreciate reactions to this proposal. Preferably a short "ok, implement it"

	27-08-2002 00:33									#39
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1. The lower build costs will help
2. Once built they will alleviate the market somewhat
3. Still no Jungle Gazette Offices I would very much like them to become a part of this somehow.

	27-08-2002 01:27									#40
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HERE ARE MY IDEAS FOR AN ALTERNATE MARKET SYSTEM

PRODUCTION IS TO BE DIVIDED INTO SUB PRODUCTS
All subProducts compete against one another in the same Market, that is Bananas, Grain, and Venison all affect the Food Market Demand:Supply line.

The only difference between them is the bonus to the final sale price.


SubProduct(Market)
FOOD MARKET
Bananas(Food) - food produced from Jungle tiles(receives a 10% bonus to final sell price)
Grain(Food) - food produced from Grassland/Plains tiles
Venison(Food) - food produced from Forest tiles (receives a 25% bonus to final sell price)

SHIELD MARKET
Timber(Shield) - shields produced from Forest tiles
Bricks(Shield) - shields produced from Grassland/Plains tiles
Stone(Shield) - shields produced from Mountain/Hills tiles
*Bonus on these products varies based on what was built in the previous session of Democracy Gameplay.

COMMERCE MARKET
Commerce - All base commerce is generic, will introduce business that will convert it to refined commerce.

DEMAND AND SUPPLY LINES - BASE NUMBERS
The current system will not work as more members become involved and the game progresses. Basically our system isn't based on supply and demand, the demand number for food is correct, but the supply isn't and the sources for the other commodities aren't correct demand OR supply numbers (except Labor).

FOOD MARKET SYSTEM
I propose that the Food DEMAND source stay the same (2xPop). The Food SUPPLY base number be changed to represent the food generated from the city tiles, which I believe will be 2 for each city.

Secondly, there will be more food supplied than demanded. Therefore we could say that the government buys all excess food (food not sold, and that which did not meet contract conditions) at 50% of the closing price. It basically purchases the excess at a bulk discount and distributes it to the military ranks.

SHIELD MARKET SYSTEM
I will work out the exact specifics later and am open to suggestions, but as of right now the only examples I can think of are:
Timber gets a 10% bonus to final sale price for every wooden ship built or upgraded to during previous session of turn plays.

Brick and Stone get a 10% bonus for every temple/aqueduct built during previous session of turn plays.

This should represent the rise in price following a sudden demand for the product.

Have no idea where the Demand number should come from. The SUPPLY number should be the production from the city tile (1 shield per city I believe) and whatever the nobles sell.

COMMERCE MARKET SYSTEM
The DEMAND number is the Markets Pop (heads in cities) multiplied times our current Annual Income (Currently $3 per capita). The SUPPLY number is the production of the city tiles and whatever the players sell.


LABOR MARKET SYSTEM
Stays the same with the following twist:
Each noble has one labor, representing your servants, vassals, slaves whatever you want to think of them as. Remember, we're just entering the Middle Ages that's how society worked. The city squares are independent municipalities of freemen. They have labor you can hire to build projects faster (you have one free labor per turn from your servants) or to build in their city. Each labor market is specific to the city. You have to hire labor to build/operate your business from the city your building/operating in.

Support for Labor
You have to feed your private labor or they will starve. Each labor you own eats 1/2 of a food per turn. If you only have 1 labor then the effect is ignored and we simply assume they subsisted on scraps from your table and squirrels off your lands. YOU CAN OBTAIN ADDITIONAL LABOR, and thus build up your Labor supply. Where do they come from? Every time our forces capture an enemy settler/worker we will put up a new labor for sale in the next trading session. That's where the Romans got their workers, that's how the Normans treated the Saxons, it's historic. When we leave the Middle Ages we'll do something to emancipate the vassals and go to an alternate form of paying them, but by then we'll be making a heck of lot more money.

Comments/Suggestions?

I like Franses idea of anytime you offer a transaction it should be valid at the time you offered it. Examples:
JoJo offers to buy 3 shields at $1 (Increasing demand)
current D:S line is (D:S 30/60=$50)
Transaction is invalid as the JoJo can't buy shields for anything less than $50. Therefore his offer must be made for $50 or more. If the price goes up later and his offer can't be filled because the price is too low........well, then kudos to JoJo.

Note: you can always quote a previous offer you made and alter the quantity/price to make it valid. You CANNOT alter a previous proposed transaction to make it INVALID.

Last edited by GhengisFarb on 27-08-2002 at 01:34

	27-08-2002 01:53									#41
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

That making an offer thing. Is that for selling as well? Making the first one to post have an advantage in both buying AND selling? Geeze. There is room for abuse in that one either way...

And if you are auctioning slaves, you may want to start with the current pool that can be found in the Military Advisor Screen. Are we starting over, or just proceding with the new system? Can we go into further debt now that the rules have changed a bit?

	27-08-2002 02:07									#42
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quote: Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx That making an offer thing. Is that for selling as well? Making the first one to post have an advantage in both buying AND selling? Geeze. There is room for abuse in that one either way...

I'm not sure what you're talking about? If it's about manipulating the prices by making proposals early that you hope will become invalid well, that's the advantage of posting early I guess. I don't see much damage for it to do to the system or other players. If they do something outlandish like "buy 500 food at $44" I think most of the nobles would eat their food production for a turn just to make the moron's contract remain valid.

quote: Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx nd if you are auctioning slaves, you may want to start with the current pool that can be found in the Military Advisor Screen. Are we starting over, or just proceding with the new system? Can we go into further debt now that the rules have changed a bit?

I prefer not to call them slaves as I don't want trolls screaming about us being Hitlers or Confederate slave masters. Think of the labor units as "Liberty Challenged". No, the only time debt was ever approved was for the purchase of your initial land holdings. I'd suggest people hold on to their cash and plan on paying their debt off in turn 14 until we get our system finished.

	27-08-2002 02:16									#43
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quote: Support for Labor You have to feed your private labor or they will starve. Each labor you own eats 1/2 of a food per turn. If you only have 1 labor then the effect is ignored and we simply assume they subsisted on scraps from your table and squirrels off your lands. YOU CAN OBTAIN ADDITIONAL LABOR, and thus build up your Labor supply. Where do they come from? Every time our forces capture an enemy settler/worker we will put up a new labor for sale in the next trading session. That's where the Romans got their workers, that's how the Normans treated the Saxons, it's historic. When we leave the Middle Ages we'll do something to emancipate the vassals and go to an alternate form of paying them, but by then we'll be making a heck of lot more money.

Perhaps you can have as many laborers to some ratio of the value of all the land and improvements on that land that you own. In other words the richer you are (defined as land assets, including improvements), the more labor you can get for free (though you would have to feed them, like under GF system.) but you could accept as much labor as you want up to your free maximum just by declaring it. I gotta go now, so can give examples of a apossible ration of wealth to 'aquired labor'. I will be back later though to finish and clarify my idea.

Kman

	27-08-2002 02:22									#44
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Several advantages to my system:

1)Free labor, makes it easier to build silos and estates on your land, all you have to do is provide shields. Could probably work it to where you could by the shields from what the city tiles are pumping into the supply.

2)MORE MONEY, the new ratios will raise the prices we're paid for our products.

	27-08-2002 02:30									#45
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Ok, I am confused on the offer thing then.

I offer to buy 2 shields at 50$ which is current market price, thus raising demand and price, correct?

Now, someone else offers to buy two more at $60 after me.

Does: A: my price get automatically moved up to $60?
B: negated and I get no shields?
C: I get mine at $50 because that was the current price?
D: You kidding? no one is selling shields. Build something.

Now. Everything but the automatic adjusting of price gives an unfair advantage to either the first to post, or the last to post. Let's say I want to prevent epistax from building that house. I just make sure I post after him, making his price invalid, so he can't get the shields.

OR, I make sure to post ASAP to get the lowest price.

Depending on the advantage. Either way opens itself to abuse and a prejudice to those who are online more, or following this closer, or are not commited to other things here.

	27-08-2002 02:43									#46
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx That making an offer thing. Is that for selling as well? Making the first one to post have an advantage in both buying AND selling? Geeze. There is room for abuse in that one either way...

I suppose you refer to the proposal I made regarding the trade proposals. I am not sure it is interpreted correctly so I will give an example:

Market Assesment 4:4=$100
OneGuy offers one commerce and sets a minimum price of $70
SecondGuy offers two commerce and sets a minimum price of $0
ThirdGuy offers one commerce and sets a minimum price of $40

The turn is closed. Final D:S=4:8=$50
OneGuy does not sell his commerce at this price so he is taken out of the equation. New final D:S=4:7=$57
SecondGuy and Thirdguy now sell their commerce at $57.

So, it does not matter when you post at all. You will always get the D:S price unless you did not want to sell against such a low price. In that case you are taken out of the supply factor, which makes it no longer possible to influence the price as Epistax described is possible with the current system.

Edit: Unorthodox, I was preparing this post and when returned saw your selling example. I hope the above clarifies that too. If not, I will go into that further (tomorrow, I guess. Its getting late and I have some other things to do).

Ghengis,

I like the idea of "worker" auctions. I suggest we make them use 1 food instead of 0.5. 0.5 will always give a problem at uneven numbers. I suppose we can sell them to eachother? Might be fun.

I do not yet see the advantage of submarkets but do not mind using them either. It certainly will complicate things for the banker. Did you realise that?

Limiting supply to the city tile is to drastic, in my opinion. It means that default prices will be something like 20/2=$1000. With everybody selling everything they still sell at about $100, which is to high in respect to the price of the land (and the buildings but they can still be adapted). I think the conversion buildings proposed will completely solve the demand/supply problem. Don't you?

	27-08-2002 03:01									#47
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Franses Ghengis, I like the idea of "worker" auctions. I suggest we make them use 1 food instead of 0.5. 0.5 will always give a problem at uneven numbers. I suppose we can sell them to eachother? Might be fun.

In my post I suggested ignoring the half number so 5 labor would consume the same as 4 labor, namely 2 food.

Captain had originally planned on us hiring labor from each other but never offered a method.

quote: Originally posted by Franses I do not yet see the advantage of submarkets but do not mind using them either. It certainly will complicate things for the banker. Did you realise that?

No monumental difference at all so there's no reason to resist it.........

Already started setting up a system to track it.

quote: Originally posted by Franses Limiting supply to the city tile is to drastic, in my opinion. It means that default prices will be something like 20/2=$1000. With everybody selling everything they still sell at about $100, which is to high in respect to the price of the land (and the buildings but they can still be adapted). I think the conversion buildings proposed will completely solve the demand/supply problem. Don't you?

Oh, my bad would we be making more money?

Our supply is in excess of demand for food so there will be price wars and the price is pretty much guaranteed to drop below $100. Each city produces 2 food so the base line would be 28:8. We produce 30-32 food now and probably more when we upgrade governements. So in a worse case scenario the price would be 28:38=$78 before the price war.

We can always change the Base Amount from $100 to some other amount. I suggest exactly that for shields and probably commerce. Has anybody come up with a source for shield demand?

	27-08-2002 03:36									#48
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx Ok, I am confused on the offer thing then. I offer to buy 2 .... blah blah blah

Yes this is a big problem. Thus my saying "Sell 2 Shields at D/S" or buy. It just means your willing to match them whever they might go.

What we need to consider:

If someone offers food at a price above the supply and demand, is it really supply? No one would consider buying it. I don't think a whole lot of expensive stuff effects the value of the cheaper stuff.

	27-08-2002 07:23									#49
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I would like to purchase 010 Termina NE (mined grass rd), $1000. What do I do?

	27-08-2002 08:07									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Duddha I would like to purchase 010 Termina NE (mined grass rd), $1000. What do I do?

You now own 010 Termina NE (mined grass rd), have $1000 debt (16 turn grace period after which you pay 10% interest to the government), and the tile produces 2 food, 1 shield, and 1 commerce.

Note: I will update the map later, when Aro gets the new one updated.

	27-08-2002 14:15									#51
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I published my Excel file on a website. I added the pictures of Spiffor/GhengisFarb to the tile overview/Estate overview. It is not perfect yet, but it is a start. The pop-up you may get does not come from my site. I hate these things.

You can find the Excel file here

Let me know if you like it or not.

By the way the market status sheet does not contain the latest GhengisFarb deal that was made a couple of minutes before closure . I did not have the time to include it.

	27-08-2002 17:44									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Franses By the way the market status sheet does not contain the latest GhengisFarb deal that was made a couple of minutes before closure . I did not have the time to include it.

I had to wake up at 3:30 am to be there for the market close and tabulate the ending tranactions, so bleah!

I think we should try to have a trading session during the week and one over the weekend.

Say Tuesday afternoon to Friday morning, and Friday afternoon to Monday morning. That gives a decent amount of time to notice the thread and propose transactions.

At two sessions a week it will still take 7 weeks to finish off the grace period, not that it concerns some of you.

Course, unless we agree on a new market system I may just continue to depress market prices..........
(I just finished tabulating my various stockpiles )

	28-08-2002 03:14									#53
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I'll take 007 to add to my estates.

	28-08-2002 03:27									#54
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I have a tavern 2/10 complete. Are we going to be reducing the price or not? I only plan on working one more into it next turn so it doesn't matter right away, but it will eventually. If it stays at 10, I'll probably have to pay off my debt first.

	28-08-2002 03:50									#55
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither I'll take 007 to add to my estates.

You already have an estate! Current Landowners aren't allowed to bid for more land until the next auction, and then only if they've paid off their debts. (those were the rules Captain laid down)

New members were supposed to be allowed to purchase unsold land under the same conditions we did.

Check Spiffor's Market Debate Thread for ideas regarding new market tweaks and building stats.

	28-08-2002 03:59									#56
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Epistax I have a tavern 2/10 complete. Are we going to be reducing the price or not? I only plan on working one more into it next turn so it doesn't matter right away, but it will eventually. If it stays at 10, I'll probably have to pay off my debt first.

I am preparing a post that polls the players regarding current solutions. I hope to finish it in the next hour. Otherwise tomorrow morning.

	28-08-2002 17:53									#57
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To all:

Poll posted. You can find it here

Please post your opinion and give us directions on how to proceed.

	28-08-2002 19:06									#58
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I want to buy the tile directly S of Tassagrad.

	28-08-2002 19:16									#59
	Inflate your Upload Space

lol ok if it's open then you're in the game. wait for GF to respond.

	28-08-2002 19:25									#60
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker I want to buy the tile directly S of Tassagrad.

You now own 019 Tassagrad S (grass rd, mine?), have $1000 debt to the government at 10% interest (15 turn Grace Period) and it produces 2 food(Grain), 1 shield(Bricks), and 1 commerce.