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Velociryx
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of Candle'Bre
Apr 1999
time: 05:22
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I don't really see it as a case of your being mean, but you have essentially shot your own best argument in the foot.
On the one hand, you're telling us to learn from the pros in the industry....to build on their strengths, rather than trying to correct their weaknesses, and exactly one breath later, you tell us that the main advantage the pros have over us is that they're on the "light" grading scale and we're on some different, harsher one.
The lesson learned? The situations are incomparable. We have no financial resources to speak of, and are being held to a higher standard than the "pros" with scads of financial resources.
Different as night and day.
I'm still curious as to why, however.... 
-=Vel=-
PS: Correction/clarification. It would be inaccurate to say that I have not proven I can create. True, we, the folks trying to do this thing have not yet created a working game, but we HAVE created, and there's ample evidence OF that right here in the forums.
And outside the forums, many of our members have created all sorts of stuff, that list to include my three books.
Create? Bank on it. Create a computer game? Not yet, but we will.
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Leland
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TCO is GP? When did this happen? Guess I've been out of the loop. What day is it? Is Reagan still the president?
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hexagonian
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Gnawing on your mind...
Jun 1999
time: 23:22
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quote:
Originally posted by moomin
GPs OK. THe plp flaming him aren't. |
When GP/TCO (and they are one and the same...) backs off from taking what amounts to cheap shots at the project and especially Vel's leadership of the team, and refrains from wild speculation about the unknown motives of people who have left the project, I suspect that everyone else will lay off him.
My biggest gripe with him has been that those shots have been directed at a volunteer staff - as if our entire lives NEEDED to be devoted to development of a game that he will be able to download for free. It would be one thing if he offered his opinions and concerns of the way Vel is managing the process, AND he was part of the development of the game (coding, graphics, game mechanic analysis...) - because he would have an investment of personal time - but he has not lifted a finger to step in and help out in the actual process even when challenged to do so. (...and simply posting comments on threads does not really count as an investment)
As he has stated he will refrain from such comments, I will do likewise. If they continue, I will continue to defend Vel's management philosophy
Last edited by hexagonian on 10-10-2003 at 21:29
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Velociryx
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of Candle'Bre
Apr 1999
time: 05:22
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That's one thing that won't be changing....the desire for public input.
We need it.
It is, quite honestly, what will make our efforts successful...that sense of community involvement.
I realize that TCO is not alone in saying that we should opt for a more "traditional" approach to things, and my position has been, and remains, that if we were doing a more "traditional" project, I could easily see adhering to more accepted standards of management.
But we're not.
Not to say that our final product will redefine the industry or anything...I'm not that starry-eyed, but the fact is, and will be, that this game will have more depth to it, and more attention paid to the gazillion little details that make a world interesting and entertaining, than prolly 95% of the games produced professionally, this year and next.
Now, I'm not saying that I know how to run a multi-million dollar company, and I'm sure the corporate bean counters all have good reasons for putting it in a box by Christmas and who-the-hell-cares if the fans don't like it.
But that ain't us. And because it ain't us...because we don't have the sorts of constraints that the "pros" have, we are free to take all the time needed to build the world OUR way...and that IS something I know a fair bit about, having created several worlds from scratch.
You want a world created? Give me a couple of starting parameters and turn me loose?
You want it created in six months? I'll give you something in six months, sure....but you won't be happy with it.
There's a tradeoff that the "pros" have to contend with, cos they're gettin' paid. The company runs outta money before they're done, and it's game over....literally.
We don't have to worry 'bout that. That's a strength for us, cos it gives us more time and takes pressure away. What WE have to worry about is that dreadful lethargy that can sometimes sneak into the mix, and I'll be the first to admit, I have a spotty record combatting that, but I'm tryin' to improve.
Nonetheless, I stand by the decision to use as light a touch as possible in the guiding of this project, because I am an artist, and I know what it's like to try and create with a gun to your head. Possible, certainly. But you will never do your best work, and that's what we want.
The best work we are capable of.
-=Vel=-
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Velociryx
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of Candle'Bre
Apr 1999
time: 05:22
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The reason we don't share internal dates is because we want to avoid the strange phenomenon of date fixation.
I could give you a date, sure. And, I could tell you till I'm blue in the face that the date is just a rough estimate, there's no way we can be sure with any reliability that such and so component will be ready by then, blah blah blah, and you know what will happen?
When that day comes and goes, despite how many times I made it clear that the date was merely a thumbnail reference for us, and not a set in stone delivery date, when the date comes and goes, it'll be treated as a drop-dead delivery date. I've seen it before, hell, truth be told, I've *participated* in the flamefests that follow, on the other side (speaking here of patches promised by Firaxis in the past which missed their--stated beforehand TENTATIVE--delivery dates. Put a date out there and it happens. That's not a hit against anybody here, cos as I've said before, I've done it too! Completely natural, and also the very REASON that we're not keen on sharing internal date/timeline information.
Not terribly surprising that we shy away from that, is it? 
-=Vel=-
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hexagonian
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Gnawing on your mind...
Jun 1999
time: 23:22
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Ohhhhhhh, get a life!!!! Afraid you're going to die before Candle'Bre is done????
Vel makes an interesting observation about gamers in general - we all feel gaming companies owe us, even before a game is released. They owe us info, they owe us to implement the concepts and ideas that we feel need to be in a game...I could go on and on.
If we do not get what we want, we cry and scream like a bunch of spoiled brats. Gimmie, gimmie, gimmie...
It is sad and somewhat pathetic, and I feel sorry for those who go through life with that attitude. But it is a free world, and I'm not going to lose sleep over those who are that way.
Pay us for our product and we'll give you a date...and even if we were charging for it, I wouldn't apologize if we missed the date. Until the money is in our hands and the product is in your hands, we, as well as any publicly-owned gaming company, owes nothing to the gamer.
And that is the simple truth - gaming companies owe us nothing - NADA!!!! They choose to share info, and use fan ideas because it serves their self-interest - making money. And it's good business.
We, however, are not a business - we are a bunch of gaming fans who want to create a world.
We ask for input because we want a good game, and we want to involve people in the process - to take part in something fun and more hands-on than most any of us would be able to do with one of the public companies.
Why am I working on Candle'Bre??? I will not gain any profit. I have no desire to use my work here as a jumping board to something else.
I am working on it because I have a great deal of respect for Vel as a gamer and as an individual. (I haven't even looked too hard at the underpinnings of the game.) Vel asks me for a graphic element, and I create it. Missing a date will not change my opinion of the overall project. If I had to back out of the project, I'd send him all my files, and somebody else could pick up the torch.
It's not a job - I do it because I enjoy it.
And don't give us that 'lack of openess' crap...
A simple question???? Why are you so interested in having a date nailed down? Why are you hammering away on that if it was life-or-death for you...
Based on the attitude of your comments, a date serves little purpose rather than giving you fuel for criticism if we do not meet it. And what would that accomplish????
It would inflate your post count. It would give you some sort of smug self-satisfaction that says, 'Ha, I showed them that I know more about the process than they do...'
Face it - you want us to fail. Perhaps it is bacause of some bitterness on your part because you took part in a volunteer project that failed.
(Oh sorry, I stooped to your level of speculation - my bad...)
But feel free to be honest with your reasoning for this fixation of yours on the date information. (as if you really cared about it)
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H Tower
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quote:
Originally posted by hexagonian
Ohhhhhhh, get a life!!!! Afraid you're going to die before Candle'Bre is done????
Vel makes an interesting observation about gamers in general - we all feel gaming companies owe us, even before a game is released. They owe us info, they owe us to implement the concepts and ideas that we feel need to be in a game...I could go on and on.
If we do not get what we want, we cry and scream like a bunch of spoiled brats. Gimmie, gimmie, gimmie...
It is sad and somewhat pathetic, and I feel sorry for those who go through life with that attitude. But it is a free world, and I'm not going to lose sleep over those who are that way.
Pay us for our product and we'll give you a date...and even if we were charging for it, I wouldn't apologize if we missed the date. Until the money is in our hands and the product is in your hands, we, as well as any publicly-owned gaming company, owes nothing to the gamer.
And that is the simple truth - gaming companies owe us nothing - NADA!!!! They choose to share info, and use fan ideas because it serves their self-interest - making money. And it's good business.
We, however, are not a business - we are a bunch of gaming fans who want to create a world.
We ask for input because we want a good game, and we want to involve people in the process - to take part in something fun and more hands-on than most any of us would be able to do with one of the public companies.
Why am I working on Candle'Bre??? I will not gain any profit. I have no desire to use my work here as a jumping board to something else.
I am working on it because I have a great deal of respect for Vel as a gamer and as an individual. (I haven't even looked too hard at the underpinnings of the game.) Vel asks me for a graphic element, and I create it. Missing a date will not change my opinion of the overall project. If I had to back out of the project, I'd send him all my files, and somebody else could pick up the torch.
It's not a job - I do it because I enjoy it.
And don't give us that 'lack of openess' crap...
A simple question???? Why are you so interested in having a date nailed down? Why are you hammering away on that if it was life-or-death for you...
Based on the attitude of your comments, a date serves little purpose rather than giving you fuel for criticism if we do not meet it. And what would that accomplish????
It would inflate your post count. It would give you some sort of smug self-satisfaction that says, 'Ha, I showed them that I know more about the process than they do...'
Face it - you want us to fail. Perhaps it is bacause of some bitterness on your part because you took part in a volunteer project that failed.
(Oh sorry, I stooped to your level of speculation - my bad...)
But feel free to be honest with your reasoning for this fixation of yours on the date information. (as if you really cared about it) |
and while you think gamers aren't allowed to get anxious/anooyed/bratty, what you just said sounded a lot like what all of us out here waiting are not supposed to be doing.
Don't for a minute think TCO fairly represents the rest of us out here
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ravagon
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Australia
Sep 1999
time: 13:22
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quote:
Originally posted by hexagonian
Vel makes an interesting observation about gamers in general - we all feel gaming companies owe us, even before a game is released. They owe us info, they owe us to implement the concepts and ideas that we feel need to be in a game...I could go on and on.
If we do not get what we want, we cry and scream like a bunch of spoiled brats. Gimmie, gimmie, gimmie...
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I disagree here, to an extent.
Many (ie: the vast majority of) gaming companies put out teasers/trailers etc, well in advance of any release or even of any semblance of the final finished product.
Small wonder then that gamers, who naturally take the slightest hint of a rumour as though its a stone tablet brought down from Mh Sinai etched with the fundamental source code for the universe, rail at the discovery that they've effectively been taken for a ride and that they've gotten their hopes up for nothing.
Its hardly an excuse for resulting bad behaviour mind you, but game companies (or their advertisers/publishers/whatever) should hardly be held blameless.
That all aside from the fact that companies lately have tended to put out "final" products that were commonly buggy and which have not necessarily been fixed.
Please don't infer that as applying to your unruly mob in any way shape or form whatsoever btw - Its just another reason, I feel, for some of the vitriol dished out, in general, to many of those same gaming companies.
quote:
Pay us for our product and we'll give you a date...and even if we were charging for it, I wouldn't apologize if we missed the date. Until the money is in our hands and the product is in your hands, we, as well as any publicly-owned gaming company, owes nothing to the gamer.
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Erm, there is still going to be some form of retail version though right?
After the public beta and the final "open" version?
I was wanting to be the first to get a pre-order in - hopefully for the edition with the serial # 000001.
5 zeroes cause you're gonna sell at least a hundred thou right?
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Velociryx
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of Candle'Bre
Apr 1999
time: 05:22
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Hey guys, and thanks to everyone for continuing the discussion here.
My hope is that now that we've got the train back on its tracks, we'll have something tangible to report and all the speculative stuff will take a backseat again, but it has served a purpose in that the forums here got spooky-quiet for a while, as we were regrouping, so to that end....some activity is better than none, yes?
(an aside to HTower - not to worry bud, we know TCO's views aren't representative of everyone's. The vast majority of folks here have been nothing but kind and patient as we stumble through our first try at this stuff, and we're doin' our level best not to disappoint!  )
While I will certainly not deny that 'the industry' has its share of strengths, I would contend that churning out code more-or-less by arbitrary deadline is not one of them.
Do that, and you get stuff like: Civ3 (anybody remember the condition of Civ3 on release? I loved it for about a week, till I ran into the limits of the depths of the game...a classic case of what I mentioned earlier. It just didn't stay on my hard drive long) - Is this an example of those industry strengths in action?
How 'bout MOO3? Another fine example of what arbitrary deadlines can do to a game, yes?
Perhaps the grandaddy of them all...Black and White. Does anybody who has played that multi-million dollar, high tech flop think it anything OTHER THAN a monumental steaming pile of crap? If so, that person is keeping very well hid.
These, and many other big titles by respected developers were all "created" using accepted industry standards, arbitrary deadlines and tight timetables, yada yada yada.
Successful? Well, they sold some copies, so in that regard, yes, I guess they were.
How's the fanbase doing tho? Will they buy that company's NEXT title?
In the case of Civ, continued involvement actually made the game half decent, though if the folks making it had simply bothered to listen to their fans and done a bit of PR work (the "love letter" comment has GOT TO go down in history as one of the more colorful PR snafu's in the company's history!) more from the get go, they prolly coulda saved themselves lots of grief.
Moo3...IS there much of a Moo3 fan base anymore? After hearing such negative reviews of it, I just stopped checking in.
Black & White - I'm not even sure there are any surviving copies of that monstrosity, much less an active "fan base"
Seems like the guys with fat budgets and lots of resources make their fair share of flops too....that's my main observation. Yep, they're creating, but a lot of WHAT they're creating is subpar at best.
So...in looking at 'the Industry,' I see some shining successes (which should not be surprising if you have resources to spend), and lots of flops (which does--and should, IMO--come as a bit of a surprise, also because they have resources to spend).
We don't have resources to spend. We have volunteers who have lives, and who often don't really know how much time they'll have to devote to the project, and that's fine. That's our reality. That's also hard to build a schedule around, which is fine too, and the main reason we've done without them.
The First and Only Velocigames Schedule Meeting
"So...how long do you guys think it'll take to get the first alpha up and running?"
"Hmmm....good question. None of us have ever done this before....we're not sure."
Nodding - "How many free hours a week do you have?"
"Depends on the job....the wife, the kids...just joined a bowling league....couldn't really say."
Vel makes some mental calculations: Let's see now....X hours to get the alpha working, times Z free hours per week equals....XZ! Not a very informative number....
And that's why we don't have timetables....
-=Vel=-
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07-10-2003 09:47
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