04-09-2002 11:46									#91
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: The strategies proposed by all CDC members in office are directly in opposition to the strategies that would gain us "turn advantage".

I'd rather stay out of this debate, but are you including me in this statement, and if so, why?

	04-09-2002 14:24									#92
	Suffering from ads?

Yes, I'm including you. My disagreements with you are just two nitpickings, though the first one could be a problem if your idea was implimented. The rest of your stance I have no real disagreement with. I'd question the armoured probes, since they're just so expensive (And with Arty broken in SMAC, the only real use for them is as extra garrisons), but you said you didn't want to take away funds from the other areas, so I don't see that as being a problem in the long run.

quote: positioning military forces near the borders of hostile factions

Extra (IMO unnecessary) forces besides the base garrisons and the small counter-offensive force I'd expect we'd have (ie. The units we used to prototype new weapons, etc). ==> Turns spent in creation that could be used on facilities ==> Credits spend on upgrading that could be used to hurry.

If we need units on the borders BTW, why not crawlers, perhaps with trance and/or radar and/or armour. The less frills probably the better. They just need to be EWS's, they don't need to fight back. At least if they're crawlers they can pay for themselves eventually.

quote: I will therefore argue against the institution of ‘Power’ system of values, except in extreme circumstances

I personally see that it's better to have less well trained troops but much more of them, then a small amount of elite troops. With the projects we should be aiming at and the facilities we'll be building anyway, we really shouldn't need it.

	04-09-2002 21:22									#93
	Full PM-box? Change here!

*confused* The Offensive Troops 'en masse?
I only do that with the Drones or Yang.
I'D prefer an smaller Elite Offensive Corp's which will less strain our scare resources?

	04-09-2002 22:15									#94
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Main_Brain, GeneralTacticus, are you also against building cheaply trained 1-1-1 clean police forces? Those won't strain our resources and will act as good garrisons. Plus they aren't human wave "cannon meat" soldiers. They would be police forces which can be upgraded to combat troops in emergencies, if we have the money of course...

	04-09-2002 23:09									#95
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Maniac if we have the money of course...

*Sigh* Dont use this thread to promote your evil capitalistic ways

Just trying to lighten the mood....Because it seems as if this debate is being taken a bit too seriously....

	04-09-2002 23:13									#96
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Tassadar5000 *Sigh* Dont use this thread to promote your evil capitalistic ways

Well this is the Merchant Exchange.

quote: Just trying to lighten the mood....Because it seems as if this debate is being taken a bit too seriously....

Yeah I know. My post about police forces is just an attempt to get some on-topic discussion going on again. I for one aren't interested in the crap they are writing. I suggest they send mails or PMs to each other instead.

	04-09-2002 23:16									#97
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Maniac Well this is the Merchant Exchange.

*Sigh* It doesnt quite seem like it....

quote: Yeah I know. My post about police forces is just an attempt to get some on-topic discussion going on again. I for one aren't interested in the crap they are writing. I suggest they send mails or PMs to each other instead.

I for one completly agree. They should take it 'outside'.

	04-09-2002 23:28									#98
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Urgg... Can't... Be... Out-bickered...

	05-09-2002 00:23									#99
	Remove this text

i think we've all had enough of this

	05-09-2002 06:06									#100
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

.... I'll buy into that, TKG...

	05-09-2002 10:18									#101
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

You people aren't the only ones who've had enough of it you know.

Anyway, in response to Main_Brain, yes, more troops would strain mineral resources more, but these extra troops wouldn't be produced until we were at or about to go to war anyway. And with the facilities/SP I expect we'll be building, they'll be close enough to elite anyway. Penalties to Industry cripple us far more than a few extra minerals in support here and there.

	05-09-2002 12:12									#102
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Extra (IMO unnecessary) forces besides the base garrisons and the small counter-offensive force I'd expect we'd have (ie. The units we used to prototype new weapons, etc). ==> Turns spent in creation that could be used on facilities ==> Credits spend on upgrading that could be used to hurry. If we need units on the borders BTW, why not crawlers, perhaps with trance and/or radar and/or armour. The less frills probably the better. They just need to be EWS's, they don't need to fight back. At least if they're crawlers they can pay for themselves eventually.

If we can see we're going to get into a war anyway, isn't it better to be able to strike as soon as necessary rather than having to wait while we build up our army and move them to the border?

quote: I personally see that it's better to have less well trained troops but much more of them, then a small amount of elite troops. With the projects we should be aiming at and the facilities we'll be building anyway, we really shouldn't need it.

I agree that 'Power' tends to not be worth it, however, I don't think it should be ruled out as an option completely.

EDIT:

quote: Main_Brain, GeneralTacticus, are you also against building cheaply trained 1-1-1 clean police forces? Those won't strain our resources and will act as good garrisons. Plus they aren't human wave "cannon meat" soldiers. They would be police forces which can be upgraded to combat troops in emergencies, if we have the money of course...

No, I'm not against building them. I find they can be very useful (though they won't be if we use FM).

	05-09-2002 15:56									#103
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by GeneralTacticus If we can see we're going to get into a war anyway, isn't it better to be able to strike as soon as necessary rather than having to wait while we build up our army and move them to the border?

I think you're assuming the day will be carried by land forces. Unless we get into battles very early, it should be Chop 'n' Drop all the way. Movement to the border? Pffft. What movement? Unless we're too spead out...(*Pokes a certain CCCP member*), it's not a problem

quote: I agree that 'Power' tends to not be worth it, however, I don't think it should be ruled out as an option completely.

Why not? By the time it comes around, we'll be long past needing morale upgrades from it.

	05-09-2002 16:23									#104
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: I think you're assuming the day will be carried by land forces. Unless we get into battles very early, it should be Chop 'n' Drop all the way. Movement to the border? Pffft. What movement? Unless we're too spead out...(*Pokes a certain CCCP member*), it's not a problem

Chop'n'Drop, AFAIK, is not viable until we get the Space elevator, by which point the game will probably be decided anyway.

	05-09-2002 19:21									#105
	Increase the size of your Attachments

How is it not viable? You're assuming our troops are far, far away. Not likely with the expansion we should have. Our drop troops would just leapfrog from base to base, 1 turn at a time, until they reach their target. The Choppers would do likewise. What's wrong with that? Hell, if it'll work in MP (cgn-5, myself against zergling.), it can work in SP.

	06-09-2002 11:49									#106
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I was thinking more along the lines of overseas factions myself.

	06-09-2002 12:50									#107
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

If they're on other continents, why even worry? They can't attack us to begin with unless they transport troops by sea, and we won't likely ever need to attack them until we're at the stage of orbital insertions anyway. If we do get into war, the sea bases we'll likely have build after filling up the space in land will give us plenty of space for Chopper refueling.

	27-09-2002 20:34									#108
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Recycling Tanks will positively impact our economic prospects. I am currently worried that the winning build queue for TBIBTU in particular ignores how important 'tanks in that base will be for our continued rapid development. I wouldn't mind being convinced otherwise, but that would take some clear reasoning indeed!

	27-09-2002 20:38									#109
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Formers will give us more extra resources than Rec Tanks. I'd like to be convinced otherwise. Until then, I won't support building Rec Tanks anywhere but in our secret project bases.

	27-09-2002 22:02									#110
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Recycling Tanks add a "constant boost" to a base's production. Are you saying that is only important in a base which will develop only (for instance) mineral resources for the production of an SP? With Soil Enrichers and Condensers a ways off, and with some need to start using talents as soon as possible, that "workerless" production is pretty darn meaningful in general, I'd say.
Further, am I ignorant here or don't they also help efficiency?

	27-09-2002 22:11									#111
	Support Apolyton

They don't help efficiency. Formers can build forests instead of rec tanks. Those boosts are just as constant unless mind worms would come and destroy them. These also provide a mineral and energy bonus over the "regular" rolling&moist tile. So if I have to make a choice between the two...

	27-09-2002 23:14									#112
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

But we don't commit workers to rec tanks. I still really feel it is worth it to build them at every base.
Thanks for the correction on efficiency.

	28-09-2002 00:33									#113
	Inflate your Upload Space

what would you rather commit workers to? mines/condensors can be crawled, so the only thing left to work is boreholes and forests (unless we have a farm tile or two)

rec tanks are good to have, but not before formers.

	28-09-2002 00:39									#114
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by TKG what would you rather commit workers to? ... rec tanks are good to have, but not before formers.

I'd rather allocate that population to talents as soon as it becomes practical. I'm even all for having 1.5 formers per base before building the 'tanks, but I believe we are just about there at TBIBTU anyway. We want every boost we can manage coming on line in optimum order, absolutely.

	28-09-2002 00:54									#115
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

i don't think that'll be necessary. size 4 bases with go GA if we get the HGP (i think) but right now, we need to commit all our workers to, uh working

later once we're in free market ( 20% psych will make more than enough talents to get our bases in GA even with the -5 police.

	28-09-2002 01:02									#116
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

With base facilities such as the 'tanks, Children's Creches and (later) Hybrid Forests, etc. we can avoid having to go FM, maybe even still bag a few golden ages. Never neglecting basic population growth and security, of course.

	28-09-2002 01:07									#117
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by lucky22 we can avoid having to go FM, maybe even still bag a few golden ages

having to go FM? no no, fm is great for research, especially with the facilities you mentioned. then adding GA's make it even better because you can pop boom without having to switch to planned and the inefficiency that it entails.

	28-09-2002 08:28									#118
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

one thing i don't get is why a planned economy is inefficient in compirison to a Free Market? shouldn't be vice versa? I consider Free Market inefficient from what i see in the real world.

-Mellian

	28-09-2002 08:36									#119
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: one thing i don't get is why a planned economy is inefficient in compirison to a Free Market? shouldn't be vice versa? I consider Free Market inefficient from what i see in the real world.

Planned is inefficient because it seems to have been based on the old Soviet model, and we all know their reputation for efficiency.

	28-09-2002 08:52									#120
	Increase the size of your Attachments

It was their Totalitarian form of government that was causing the inefficiency, not the planned economy. darn those firaxians :doitnow:

-Mellian