30-08-2002 08:33									#31
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by jimmytrick All of the anit-American crap I am seeing here, including some from Americans makes me glad that I will die some day and not be here to witness the little intellectual integrity and moral timber left in the world slide into the abyss. America spent the first half of the last century fighting to save Europe from German oppression and the last half holding back the Soviet iron curtain. Now we want to attack terror at its root and few if any posters here credit America as being any better than the Nazis, Imperial Japanese, and Soviet Communists. Who was willing to fight communism in Asia. We did. Badly, but we did it to prevent the world from being overun with communist evil that would have stripped from every corner of the world every last vestige of freedom and dignity. And, setting aside the respect and thanks that we are due, the posters here have no sense of history. I have lived long enough to understand why we must have these regular and horric wars. People are of bad moral character.

What about our "Good Neighbor" policy towards Latin American countries in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, in which the United States sought to impose dictatorships in some of those countries through convert operations and outright interventions?

What about how the United States government did not aggressively begin to abolish segregation until the combined pressures from organized grassroots protests within our country, and from our shameful international image during the Cold War as a hypocritical power for freedom?

What about how we became an imperial power over the Phillipines, Puerto Rico, and Cuba, after the Spanish-American War, instead of liberating those three countries?

What about how we stole the property of loyal American citizens whose ancestry was Japanese, and forcing them to live in desert camps during World War II?

What about the quasi-legal institution of lynching of blacks during the nadir of race relations of 1880's through the 1930's?

What about how we refuse to intervene to stop crimes against humanity in today's world, unless we have compelling economic interest to do so?




Is the United States the only country to have carried out such shameful policies? No -- every country in the world has a dark side to their history, along with a light side to their history.

The United States is one of the handful of countries where it has a lot of potential to be a force for liberty with equality in the world, but so far, our leaders have repeatedly fail to effectively, and consistently embrace that ideal.

	30-08-2002 08:40									#32
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Well stated fun, it should be remebered that the founding fathers never intended for this to be a philanthropist nation of liberty, equality and fraternity for all it's inhabitants. This was to be a nation for liberty, equality, etc. for a small number of land owning elite white males. Women, poor whites, blacks, and native americans weren't even considered human beings in this grand vision of the much celebrated founding fathers.

	30-08-2002 08:44									#33
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

It really sucks how it all worked out, eh?

	30-08-2002 08:45									#34
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

White women were certainly considered human, the Founders just believed that their role was in the home and to be subservient to their husbands in all things.

	30-08-2002 08:47									#35
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

What a revolutionary thought that was.

	30-08-2002 08:49									#36
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by monkspider Well stated fun, it should be remebered that the founding fathers never intended for this to be a philanthropist nation of liberty, equality and fraternity for all it's inhabitants. This was to be a nation for liberty, equality, etc. for a small number of land owning elite white males. Women, poor whites, blacks, and native americans weren't even considered human beings in this grand vision of the much celebrated founding fathers.

I only partially agree with you Mr. Commie.


At the end of the American Revolutionary War, the 3% of the soldiers who were black slaves, were granted their freedom in many cases.

Poor whites were giving the enfranchisement in the 1830's during the Jacksonian era.

White women were activists in the areas of temperance, women's suffrage, abolition, and peace movements -- they were not exactly locked up in their homes during the 19th century.

As for blacks and Amerindians, in most cases, that is where your statement of being seen less than human is closer to how certain groups of people were perceived.

	30-08-2002 08:49									#37
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Floyd - I agree It's unreasonable to blame the founding father's for not being outspoken feminsts, but women were nonetheless excluded from their declarions of liberty and equality. That said, Women were much better off than minorities though, for simple reasons of necessity.

	30-08-2002 08:51									#38
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Oh certainly, I'm just saying the were seen as just as human as men were, their roles were just defined differently in those days. Most women back then would have agreed with this

Not that it's a good thing, of course, but ultra-feminism is no better.

	30-08-2002 08:53									#39
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Not that it's a good thing, of course, but ultra-feminism is no better.

Now that I agree with you 100% on.

I do cherish these moments of agreement with you David, it always gives me a warm, fuzzy feeling about humanity.

	30-08-2002 08:56									#40
	Inflate your Upload Space

Guys -- read my last post.

Women were definitely active in the public sphere of 19th century America.

	30-08-2002 08:58									#41
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I agree that they were active Fun, so were slaves. There were a lot of planned and actual slave revolts. As well as more subtle disobediences as well (such as refusing to work very hard, or running away, etc). But being active didn't do either of these groups much good for a long time.

	30-08-2002 09:01									#42
	Suffering from ads?

But I think your exaggeration might have misled me to believe that you perceived that white women had no public opportunities to advocate their interests.

	30-08-2002 09:07									#43
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Ah, I appologize, what I meant was that while the declaration of independence preached liberty and equality for all. It was unthinkable that women would actually be considered part of the "all". Despite this, they did do well to influence public policy on a number of things, just as you mentioned.
Sojurner Truth is a great example, she helped free a lot of slaves, and spoke often on the subject of aboltion. She was not only a woman but also an african-american! So she had the odds exponentially stacked against her.

	30-08-2002 11:58									#44
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by monkspider Well stated fun, it should be remebered that the founding fathers never intended for this to be a philanthropist nation of liberty, equality and fraternity for all it's inhabitants. This was to be a nation for liberty, equality, etc. for a small number of land owning elite white males. Women, poor whites, blacks, and native americans weren't even considered human beings in this grand vision of the much celebrated founding fathers.

Boy, you women really know how to hold onto a grudge!

	30-08-2002 12:00									#45
	Support Apolyton

I believe americans are responsible for every case of cancer and heart disease since 1948. for this alone they should be banished from the face of the earth.

	30-08-2002 12:03									#46
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Can anyone remember a war the Americans started?
They why?
Then did they really start it?
And Why?

Start there....

	30-08-2002 12:13									#47
	Support Apolyton

gulf war- we didn't really need to attack Iraq after all. They took over the country therefore they deserve it.

	30-08-2002 12:32									#48
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

i'm surprised has given any points to this troll yet

0.1/10

	30-08-2002 12:37									#49
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Who? jt, or Diss?

I'm enjoying not wanting to rip jt's throat out for once.

	30-08-2002 12:45									#50
	Tired of ads?

jt of course

	30-08-2002 12:51									#51
	Full PM-box? Change here!

There isn't an anti-American preponderance in Poly's OT?

	30-08-2002 13:10									#52
	Got spare money?

i wouldnt be that positive to such a statement

still, that doesnt change the intentions of jimmy's post....

	30-08-2002 13:36									#53
	Suffering from ads?

Sauce for the goose...

	30-08-2002 16:08									#54
	Re: sad thoughts on poly posters Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by jimmytrick America spent the first half of the last century fighting to save Europe from German oppression

Saved us? We fought the Nazis from 1939. You guys only joined in fully after you were attacked on your own soil, late 1941. What took you so long?

I know the Hollywood movies portrayed WW2 as a war btw the USA and Germany. The role of other countries are played down. I guess the Americans would like to feel they did all the work and had to help us helpless Eurotrash - I'm sure it makes you feel good...

Don't let Hollywood movies be your only history reference...

BTW, some German rocket scientists were welcomed in America. How could you let these Nazis go free and live in your country?

quote: and the last half holding back the Soviet iron curtain.

Nice try... Too bad you didn't succeed.

quote: Now we want to attack terror at its root and few if any posters here credit America as being any better than the Nazis, Imperial Japanese, and Soviet Communists.

Europe supports the war on terror.

quote: Who was willing to fight communism in Asia. We did. Badly, but we did it to prevent the world from being overun with communist evil that would have stripped from every corner of the world every last vestige of freedom and dignity.

You fought communism in Vietnam, but did not succeed. Couldn't you have tried a less bloody way?

quote: And, setting aside the respect and thanks that we are due, the posters here have no sense of history.

You are due to some respect and thanks of course. We should expect some moral fiber from the superpower.

One ex.: the Marshall plan.

As far as wartime history goes it is more questionable...

	30-08-2002 16:15									#55
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Asher In World War Two Canada was a completely sovereign nation and wasn't obligated to join in on the war.

Right!

	30-08-2002 23:12									#56
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

They did delay the declaration by a whole week (after Britain declared war).

Australia incidentally declared war on the same day as the British.

	30-08-2002 23:20									#57
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: BTW, some German rocket scientists were welcomed in America. How could you let these Nazis go free and live in your country?

Even better: V2 was the rocket that hit London in late 1944, and V5 was the version that flew to the moon (V stands for Vergeltungswaffe, weapon for retaliation)

	30-08-2002 23:24									#58
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

There was a brief debate about whether Canada had a choice. It was decided we did. But OTOH, the government didn't really have a choice, the hockey players had already left training camp.

	30-08-2002 23:31									#59
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: America spent the first half of the last century fighting to save Europe from German oppression and the last half holding back the Soviet iron curtain.

Humanitarian reasons? The USA never moved except for saving their own investments. They were one of the few countries who had an economic benefit of WWII. They invested a lot into England. Had Germany won, the investments were lost. Same with "holding back Soviets". It was a game for power and the USA need Europe as a market - not quite possible with the USSR on top. The main difference: Back then, the USA acted sensibly for their own interests. Today, they are lead by stupid warmongers.

quote: Now we want to attack terror at its root and few if any posters here credit America as being any better than the Nazis, Imperial Japanese, and Soviet Communists.

Begging for credit is something I rightaway despise. And if the US continue as they did do the last years they are not better.

	30-08-2002 23:41									#60
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

If the US hadn't joined WW2. Europe would likely have fallen to the Nazis, however, the Soviets would then have 'liberated' them. The Warsaw Pact gains a few million more members and some technologically advanced nations. The US also wouldn't have gained the German scientists, the Soviet Union would have, or they would have been lost.

So America doesn't have as much technology, Western Europe (and all the important investments involved) and the Soviet Union is much, much stronger.

Something tells me America wouldn't have done so well in the Cold War if that were the case...