30-08-2002 23:44									#61
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quote: Originally posted by red_jon If the US hadn't joined WW2. Europe would likely have fallen to the Nazis, however, the Soviets would then have 'liberated' them.

I would personally think that the USSR and Britain would have ended up in a protacted battle with Germany, lasting several years beyond 1945. It would probably end in occupied countries liberating themselves through revolt after the Nazis became fatigued.

	30-08-2002 23:48									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin I would personally think that the USSR and Britain would have ended up in a protacted battle with Germany lasting several years, probably ending in occupied countries liberating themselves through revolt.

Even if this were the case, it would still have severely hindered the US cause in the Cold War. Still no handy German scientists and no European allies. I think if this happened Britain would have been much more Russia-friendly than American.

edit: and how do we know these European revolts wouldn't have been communist?

	30-08-2002 23:51									#63
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I don't disagree with your ultimate point, just your alternate history.

The US entered the war for self-interest, not to protect Democracy. If that were true they would have paid more attention to the activities in Europe in the 30s.

	30-08-2002 23:52									#64
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quote: Originally posted by red_jon edit: and how do we know these European revolts wouldn't have been communist?

Remember the revolts against communism in the late 80s?

How do we know they weren't going to become fascists?

	30-08-2002 23:59									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin Remember the revolts against communism in the late 80s? How do we know they weren't going to become fascists?

Well I was just thinking that there would have been more communists as the Soviets had the same enemy. It would have been an easier alternative than trying to establish a democracy in the middle of a Nazi empire.

	31-08-2002 00:04									#66
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My point being, why would you want to overthrow one dictactorship and replace it with another

	31-08-2002 00:11									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin My point being, why would you want to overthrow one dictactorship and replace it with another

Because democracy had failed in their eyes? And I'm sure the communists wouldn't have seen it as the same as fascism.

	31-08-2002 02:46									#68
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quote: Originally posted by jimmytrick All of the anit-American crap I am seeing here, including some from Americans makes me glad that I will die some day and not be here to witness the little intellectual integrity and moral timber left in the world slide into the abyss. America spent the first half of the last century fighting to save Europe from German oppression and the last half holding back the Soviet iron curtain. Now we want to attack terror at its root and few if any posters here credit America as being any better than the Nazis, Imperial Japanese, and Soviet Communists. Who was willing to fight communism in Asia. We did. Badly, but we did it to prevent the world from being overun with communist evil that would have stripped from every corner of the world every last vestige of freedom and dignity. And, setting aside the respect and thanks that we are due, the posters here have no sense of history. I have lived long enough to understand why we must have these regular and horric wars. People are of bad moral character.

You tell 'em, Jimmy.

	31-08-2002 02:56									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin The US entered the war for self-interest, not to protect Democracy. If that were true they would have paid more attention to the activities in Europe in the 30s.

The US entered the war they were attacked and no longer had any choice.

It were the Euros who had plenty of choices about how and when to address the 'German problem' who dithered and fussed and acted out of foolish ideas of self interest.

	31-08-2002 03:16									#70
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand You tell 'em, Jimmy.

I think we always knew where your biases lie in regards to international issues and United States, and its history, Mr. Hyper-Patriot.

	31-08-2002 05:24									#71
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I can do anthing I have a mind to.
Many people in many countries can't.

	31-08-2002 06:41									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Richelieu Right!

We had to have a fully independent vote in Parliament to do so, and only declared war on Sept. 9 1939, IIRC.

	31-08-2002 06:44									#73
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither The US entered the war they were attacked and no longer had any choice. It were the Euros who had plenty of choices about how and when to address the 'German problem' who dithered and fussed and acted out of foolish ideas of self interest.

?

How so? Europe dithered, but so did the US (and for 2 years longer, too). At least the UK and France had the decency to make up their minds before they'd actually gotten a bloody nose...

	31-08-2002 06:51									#74
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quote: We spent from 1941-1945 doing that, which hardly constitutes half a Century. Oh, you're not one of those historical revisionists who asserts Germany was the evil villain in WWI as well, are you?

Ja. Germany wasn't good in WWI but neither were the brits

America were sort of ******** in WWI, they were allegedly giving equal aid to both sides, but were secretly helping the British.

And the Italians in WWI were traitors to their alliance

It may or may not have been best that way... But it could have

	31-08-2002 06:55									#75
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quote: BTW, some German rocket scientists were welcomed in America. How could you let these Nazis go free and live in your country?

They weren't nazis. they were fleeing them.

Einstein ring a bell?

And they expelled and persecuted others. Freud was one I believe.


-
red_jon- I think that if the US satyed out and Germany had managed to take Britain, they would have been uncontested in Africa, and since they had the vast resources of cetnral europe, could have regrouped from Russia next to Germany (remember, the main reason that Germany had to send troops away from the Russian lines was the allied push) Therefore, Russia may have reclaimed their lands, but then Germany may have regrouped, forced Czechs, Austrians, etc. into their armies... used the Austrarian production capacity and force their way back into russia, maybe bog down because of the good WEstern Russian Generals.

However, I cannot really see a scenario with Russia winning without the US.

Remember Stalin kept screaming at the US to do something, an invasion, or anything.

	31-08-2002 06:55									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger At least the UK and France had the decency to make up their minds before they'd actually gotten a bloody nose...

The UK and France are largely responsible for the rise of Adolf Hitler.

	31-08-2002 07:02									#77
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Possibly (I'm inclined to agree that if Wilsonian ideas had actually been carried through the consequences would have been better all around). This means nothing. Two years after France and England had finally realised what kind of man Hitler was, the US was still sitting on its hands.

Britain could easily have rested on its ass like the US did in 1939. Hitler would probably have been satisfied with its neutrality...

	31-08-2002 07:07									#78
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Britain could also have acted sooner and supported the Czechs and then the Czechs could have held sudetenland.

The lost of the high lands of sudetenland ceded the great czech nation to the germans, and therefore caused the collapse of the Czechs (who were BTW well armed and trained)

	31-08-2002 07:07									#79
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quote: Originally posted by DarkCloud They weren't nazis. they were fleeing them. Einstein ring a bell? And they expelled and persecuted others. Freud was one I believe

I think they were referring to Werner von Braun and his ilk.

quote: Once the rockets are up Who cares where they come down? That's not my department Said Werner von Braun

-He Aims for the Stars but Sometimes Hits London, Tom Lehrer

	31-08-2002 07:09									#80
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quote: Originally posted by DarkCloud Britain could also have acted sooner and supported the Czechs and then the Czechs could have held sudetenland. The lost of the high lands of sudetenland ceded the great czech nation to the germans, and therefore caused the collapse of the Czechs (who were BTW well armed and trained)

Yup. Both diddled away their opportunities. One did so for longer (after Hitler's aims had become obvious to anyone with eyes, rather than simply mostly obvious)...

	31-08-2002 07:11									#81
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quote: Originally posted by DarkCloud However, I cannot really see a scenario with Russia winning without the US. Remember Stalin kept screaming at the US to do something, an invasion, or anything.

That he did... but the US and British did basically nothing for 2 years, except watch the Russians fight the war for them. Yes, there were bombing raids, but German production actually increased yearly from 1942-1944, despite the bombing.

By the time the US and British actually did something (invade Italy), the Russians were well on their way to winning on their own.

	31-08-2002 07:11									#82
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quote: I think they were referring to Werner von Braun and his ilk.

Sorry, I must admit my ignorance.
Why did he come to America and when?

-The only important Germans I remember from then who didn't flee to America were Heidegger and the statesmen.

quote: One did so for longer (after Hitler's aims had become obvious to anyone with eyes, rather than simply mostly obvious)...

The american people... not america... but hte people have a tradition for not wanting to get involved in wars that they don't have an option to benefit from.

But yes, they were idiots.

Hitler was very clear in his ideas for racial purity (Mein Kampf anyone?)

	31-08-2002 07:13									#83
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The Sovs would have won WWII without US+UK help, IMO.

The turning point for the war in the East was in mid-1942, when American supplies were a second-order concern, and American contribuion to the actual fighting was almost non-existent.

	31-08-2002 07:13									#84
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quote: By the time the US and British actually did something (invade Italy), the Russians were well on their way to winning on their own.

But remember, forces had to be diverted to deal with the eventuallity of American/British assaults.

And remember Rommel in North Africa... Without the allies, it might have been possible to pull his unit out and fight the russians with them... Possibly unlikely, but it may have happened.

	31-08-2002 07:16									#85
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...amazing how fast this digressed into a WWII thread

	31-08-2002 07:18									#86
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quote: Originally posted by DarkCloud Sorry, I must admit my ignorance. Why did he come to America and when?

When? After VE day. Prior to that him and his team were still lobbing V2s at London.

	31-08-2002 07:19									#87
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quote: Originally posted by DarkCloud But remember, forces had to be diverted to deal with the eventuallity of American/British assaults. And remember Rommel in North Africa... Without the allies, it might have been possible to pull his unit out and fight the russians with them... Possibly unlikely, but it may have happened.

Forces were diverted, yes, but they were pretty minimal compared to the forces engaged in Russia. Rommel had 2 divisions - versus 180 (IIRC?) German divisions in Russia. It's possible that if the Germans had the extra dozen or so divisions allocated to France, allocated instead to Russia in 1941 or '2, that might have made the difference. But in 1941 and '2, the US had no troops in England, so the diversion can mainly be credited to Britain. The US troop buildup didn't start really happening until 1943 - by which time the Russians had turned the tide.

	31-08-2002 07:20									#88
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Why? Because he knew how to build a rocket that could carry a 1-ton payload a few hundred miles, impact mithin a few thousand yards of where you wanted it to, and do so at speeds which prevented enemy intecept.

	31-08-2002 07:20									#89
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quote: Originally posted by DarkCloud ...amazing how fast this digressed into a WWII thread

Not my fault, honest!

	31-08-2002 07:27									#90
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People are pretending they have a sense of history.