31-08-2002 16:58									#121
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quote: Originally posted by MarkG i'm surprised has given any points to this troll yet 0.1/10

I don't think its a troll Mark. I think he's genuinely upset.

	31-08-2002 17:43									#122
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quote: To the greatest extent, we were acting selflessly.

	31-08-2002 17:45									#123
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Just to remind things to our american friends : it was the Japan who forced USA in the Pacific War with Pearl Harbor, and it was Germany who declared war to USA, not the other way around.

Rooselvelt was willing to engage USA in the war since years. He helped the Allies as much as he could. It was the population who (though largely supportive of the Allies), did not wanted to enter the war.

And French and British were pitifully cowards against Hitler. Chamberlain particularly, was a cretin who prevented any strong action and helped Hitler to dissecate the Czechs.

	31-08-2002 17:46									#124
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quote: To the greatest extent, we were acting selflessly.

No, seriously... Do you really believe in this propaganda crap, or are you just trolling ?

	31-08-2002 19:44									#125
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quote: it was the Japan who forced USA in the Pacific War with Pearl Harbor, and it was Germany who declared war to USA, not the other way around.

Basically, it was Hitlers idea to take the war to the USA. The USA already was giving military aid to the allies so much that there wouldn't be too great a difference to have an "official" war.

	31-08-2002 20:58									#126
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Anyway jimmytrick is obviously correct as far as his general opinion of the Apolyton OT forum goes. This really is a den of anti-American nonsense. If half of the posts here had an element of truth in them then the world would be justified in blowing us off of the face of the earth. Many Americans who post here would seem to enjoy the prospect of an event of that nature as well. Europe can be excused because many get their views of America from Hollywood and isolated events that are reported throughout the world but Americans who have lived and traveled here to places other than the likes of New York or Los Angeles should know better.

Why do many Europeans who visit here remember how friendly Americans were toward them? Is it perhaps because many Americans do really care about other people besides themselves? Is it even remotely possible that even when we have been cursed with a corrupt government the people really cared whether Europe or the rest of the world lived or died?

Millions of dollars are sent every year to poor people througout the world. And that money comes from the pockets of individual Americans who care. That same sentiment prevailed during WW2 when teenagers from this country bled and died for people they never met. It was Japan that attacked the United States. They (including my father and most of my Uncles) went to save Europe. Thanks for the gratitude. I think Apolyton reflects the attitude of rich, spoiled kids who sit behind a computer and ridicule people who would have died for them. This world has gone to hell. I am 54. I know why that generation went to war. It is interesting how time enables the revisionists to gain credibility when only paper is available to study while the people who participated are dead.

	31-08-2002 21:04									#127
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Bah, damn anti-Americans are making me agree with Lincoln! DAMN YOU!!!!!

Seriously, anti-American trolling is really bad. Yes, many conservatives and Democrats are responsible for an Imperialistic United States and its self-serving foreign policy. But don't generalize and lump all Americans, or even the vast majority of them into that category. It's sad that most people blame all of America for the greedy and immoral behavior of its politicians and the richest 1%.

	31-08-2002 21:48									#128
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quote: Originally posted by Lincoln Anyway jimmytrick is obviously correct as far as his general opinion of the Apolyton OT forum goes. This really is a den of anti-American nonsense. If half of the posts here had an element of truth in them then the world would be justified in blowing us off of the face of the earth. Many Americans who post here would seem to enjoy the prospect of an event of that nature as well. Europe can be excused because many get their views of America from Hollywood and isolated events that are reported throughout the world but Americans who have lived and traveled here to places other than the likes of New York or Los Angeles should know better. Why do many Europeans who visit here remember how friendly Americans were toward them? Is it perhaps because many Americans do really care about other people besides themselves? Is it even remotely possible that even when we have been cursed with a corrupt government the people really cared whether Europe or the rest of the world lived or died? Millions of dollars are sent every year to poor people througout the world. And that money comes from the pockets of individual Americans who care. That same sentiment prevailed during WW2 when teenagers from this country bled and died for people they never met. It was Japan that attacked the United States. They (including my father and most of my Uncles) went to save Europe. Thanks for the gratitude. I think Apolyton reflects the attitude of rich, spoiled kids who sit behind a computer and ridicule people who would have died for them. This world has gone to hell. I am 54. I know why that generation went to war. It is interesting how time enables the revisionists to gain credibility when only paper is available to study while the people who participated are dead.

	31-08-2002 22:01									#129
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I'm sorry, but I owe America nothing.

	31-08-2002 23:03									#130
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Lincoln, I agree with your sentiment.

However... Europeans don't appreciate the way that Americans remind us of how they helped Europe. Americans who say "We saved your asses cos we love democracy" are rather insulting.

Mainly because it is not true, but also, I'm sure you wouldn't like to be asked for continual gratitude by the grandchild of the man who saved your grandfathers life.

Todays Americans did not save us, their parents and grandparents did. I appreciative the help of those who sacrificed their lives, and I regret the loss to those who lost family and friends.

This goes to all the peoples who saved Europe all those years ago, no matter where they came from, USA, Canada, UK etc.

	31-08-2002 23:40									#131
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I don't appreciate the arrogance of Americans either. I understand why some people hate Americans. It is because of the loud mouth people who live here who spend the small change of people who have actually sacrificed something besides some cheap rhetoric. Also, I do not expect enduring gratitude from anyone for what a past generation did. It just seems to me that a lot of people do not know what they are talking about when they discuss the attitudes of Americans in general. I venture to say that the majority view and attitude of typical Americans is not often seen. Loud mouthed people always get the most attention.

	31-08-2002 23:41									#132
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Lonestar says: "Screw the Rest of the World. Go America!"


That is all.

	31-08-2002 23:42									#133
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Lincoln, the reverse is also true.

A lot of people in Europe appreciate America, but they are not vocal, there is no need to be*, so you only get to hear the anti-American stuff.

*Mainly because anti-Americans are trying to neutralise the pro-America "USA, USA!" chants coming from Americans.

	31-08-2002 23:43									#134
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I am sure that is true as well.

	01-09-2002 00:12									#135
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quote: And the Italians in WWI were traitors to their alliance

I think you were referring to WW2 as the italians kept their alliance with France against the austrians in WW1

	01-09-2002 00:45									#136
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Actually, in WW1, the Italians were members of the Triple Alliance, but did not declare war along with the rest of the alliance.

	01-09-2002 00:49									#137
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Data, Italy was part of the preWWI German-Austrian-Italian alliance. It just exercised its option of ignoring it when the war was declared.

	01-09-2002 00:49									#138
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Why has this bollocks received 135 replies?

	01-09-2002 00:50									#139
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It was only 134 til you posted

	01-09-2002 00:55									#140
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It's rubbish. A spot of bored posturing from a turd-touching screecher and suddenly everyone's got their chests puffed out and getting self-righteous.

I don't give it 1 out of 10. I give it a poke in the eye with a bendy twig and advise all participants to go outside and puch people in the face at random.

	01-09-2002 01:00									#142
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quote: Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin quote: If the Germans had been solely intent on the USSR and if the USSR had not received the aid they did, there is no question that either Moscow would have fallen in 1941 or the Volga line lost in 1942. Either case would have meant the end for the ability of the Soviets to ever 'win' the war by themselves So if the Western Allies had given less help to the USSR then Eastern Europe would never have fallen under Soviet domination?

Maybe. Certainly, if the Soviets had been crippled it would have cost many more Western Allied lives to put an end to the war in Europe, assuming a 'good' end would still have been possible.

	01-09-2002 01:50									#143
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I can't believe I read all this........

Well, since I read all this, I believe I have a right to put in my two-cents:

My personal opinion is that alot of Americans take their freedoms for granted. Its THESE types of Americans that make the rest of us look bad. They think and act like everyone else isn't as good as them. When these ppl travel abroad and find that other countries don't possess our freedoms, they expect that culture to "bend" to their will.

Americans have to have a sense that our culture is NOT, repeat, NOT the best on the planet. Futhermore, WE are not the best. No one is. We (us Yanks) have to remind ourselves that different ppl are going to have different cultures. We need less ethnocentrism.

Simply put, America isn't the best neither should it impose it's own views on other ppl. We're just another country on the planet that has more freedoms than other countries.......God Bless that.

	01-09-2002 01:52									#144
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quote: Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin The interest of defeating an enemy who threatened the US, and had taken action against the US. It would not have been in Americas interest to have a Fascist Europe and Asia. Incidentally I think France and Britain acted out of self-interest. I'm under no illusions of "saving democracy", neither should anyone else be.

SD, Could you amplify your thoughts here. By Dec. 7, 1941, the US had all but declared war on Germany and Japan through Lend Lease and the Embargo respectively. We were threatening the Axis, not the other way around.

However, I still see what US interests were at stake other than political - i.e., we could not co-exist over the long term with fascist states.

However, if this is true, America's war was completely ideological. It was a war to "save" democracy - the UK's democracy in particular, and to some extent, China's democracy.

Since WWII, I think the US has continued its aggressived defense of democracy and human rights. This is how we think of ourselves, btw. It is part of our national culture.

	01-09-2002 06:21									#145
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quote: How so? The Germans were already collapsing from overextension. There was no going back; they'd pissed away their advantages (highly trained and well-equipped units + technological superiority) and the Russians were much, much stronger than they'd been prior to Barbarossa. Russian factories were hitting full stride, the army had been restructured to undo the damage of the purges of the 30s, even their air force was beginning to be able to contend against the Luftwaffe. The Germans had to occupy all of Europe; even without the British+US threat on the coasts (minimal in 1942) they had to leave people there to fight rebellions. They were trying to do this with a population which was running out of people of fit age for military service, and they were running out of oil, iron ore, etc.

But if America was not involved, then the Japanese (if they hadn't bombed pearl harbor) could have continued their war against the russians and caused stalin to still FURTHER split his forces... Unless he was ready to give up the east to Japan (which I think he might have, although other data shows he wouldn't and taht data is what I would refer to you.)

quote: Even the stripped down Far East Military District in Winter of 1941 would have whipped the **** out of the Japanese Kwangtung Army.

But then why didn't russia attack and defeat them before.

Remember that Island Japan won in war earlier in the centruy... the northern Isaland they fought the USSR over and won? Japan had beaten the USSR in the past.

	01-09-2002 06:21									#146
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I try to be as objective as possible with the history of the United States.

The United States had and has, great power to advance her own interests.
In the past as in the present, if United States can advance her ecnomic interests by supporting dictatorships in other countries, she will do so.

Any other country would do the same if it were within their power to do so.

You can't deny historical fact that United States has supported dictatorships in other countries, and helped overthrow democracies, and replaced them with new dictatorships.

This pattern of behavior would be apparent in any country that has the power that the United States has, simply because of the basic economic interest motive.

	01-09-2002 06:26									#147
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quote: Actually, Moscow would have fallen in 1941 anyway if Hitler had allowed his generals to go after Moscow, which every single one of them except for Jodl (who was Hitler's ***** anyway) wanted to do, rather than wasting time in the Ukraine. It almost fell as things were - 700,000 of the last 800,000 Russian defenders were wiped out during Operation Typhoon before the Wehrmact ground to a halt almost within site of Moscow.

And if moscow had fallen, the russian people would ahve lost most of their will to fight

quote: The Soviets would have drawn them into Siberia, stretched them out, and then cut them off with their armor. Even the T-26, which was a piece of ****, was still better than anything the Japanese played around with.

Yes, but then the Japanese could have held down more units in the East, if the russians were worried that the japanese would only fight one superpower rather than the USSR and the USA.

quote: The Japanese had no chance against the SU on the SU's soil, and they knew it. Whatever the bluster, they knew it.

But earlier, they took that island... and kept half... Sakhalin Island I beleive it was...

quote: Basically, it was Hitlers idea to take the war to the USA. The USA already was giving military aid to the allies so much that there wouldn't be too great a difference to have an "official" war.

Ja, that was a bit crazy nevertheless. If hitler hadn't declared war, it may have been less likely that the USA would have declared war on them, at least for a few more months... and what did he attempt to ACCOMPLISH in declaring war? At the time, he had no prospects for invasion...

Lincoln- well, most people in the OT are Communists, so I would suppose that explains it

	01-09-2002 06:27									#148
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We should have either stayed out of the European war altogether or marched on Moscow like Patton wanted to. It would have saved us a lot of trouble in the long run.

	01-09-2002 06:28									#149
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quote: But then why didn't russia attack and defeat them before. Remember that Island Japan won in war earlier in the centruy... the northern Isaland they fought the USSR over and won? Japan had beaten the USSR in the past.

But that's actually the entire point.

You are referring to Sakhalin Island, and the Russo-Japanese war.

Japan won the war because they defeated the Russian navy, and won several victories on the ground against the Russian army. However, they were actually running out of money by the time the war ended, and if it had been a more protracted war, it's very possible that Russia could have won.

But that's irrelevant here. The point is, 1901 and 1941 were very different in terms of technology. Tanks were not used in 1901, nor were motorized vehicles. In 1941, though, armies without armor and motorization were in effect immobilized. Yes, Japan had some armor, and a degree of mobilization, but Russia's armor was very superior in quality, and their forces were more heavily motorized. In addition to this, in 1941 Russian leadership in the Far East definitely eclipsed that of Japan - remember, Zhukov was in command at this time in the Far East. And more importantly, Russian leadership was far, far better at this time than it had been under the czar in 1901.

The main point is that in terms of equipment, doctrine, and tactics, the Soviets made a much greater leap forward from 1901 to 1941 than Japan did, and that's why a Soviet ground victory was inevitable against Japan, no matter what the circumstances of the war were - whether it was fought in 1941 or 1945, or whether it was a Soviet invasion of Manchuria or a Japanese invasion of Siberia and the Maritime Provinces was largely irrelevant to the final outcome.

	01-09-2002 06:30									#150
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quote: You can't deny historical fact that United States has supported dictatorships in other countries, and helped overthrow democracies, and replaced them with new dictatorships

Ah, but CAPITALIST dictatorships as opposed to COMMUNIST dictatorships

MrFun, I have to agree with most of your post


----

quote: I think you were referring to WW2 as the italians kept their alliance with France against the austrians in WW1

No, I was refering to WWI because France was allied with Germany in the Triple Alliance (I believe...) Wheras France, Britain and Russia were in the Triple Entente.

Instead of siding with their allies, Germany, Italy declared war on their allies, believing it better...

(Apologies if the exact detalils are a bit wrong, I'm a bit sketchy on that era... but I remember the basic ideas )