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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:22
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And if moscow had fallen, the russian people would ahve lost most of their will to fight |
No, but they would have lost their communications and transportation hub, which would have been just as significant.
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Yes, but then the Japanese could have held down more units in the East, if the russians were worried that the japanese would only fight one superpower rather than the USSR and the USA. |
Not really. The Soviets knew that the Japanese couldn't really go anywhere in Siberia - they didn't have the logistics to do much more than take the Maritime Provinces. They couldn't march across Siberia like they do in Axis & Allies, and that was obvious. The Soviets still would have withdrawn large forces, including their best units, to face Germany at the time of Typhoon, but it wouldn't have made much difference because the remainder, including masses of T-26s - which were useless on the Western front but powerful in the East - would have easily checked any Japanese attack.
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But earlier, they took that island... and kept half... Sakhalin Island I beleive it was... |
Yes, Sakhalin, but not only was this not part of mainland Russia, but as I explained above this was a totally different war, totally different time, and totally different set of circumstances.
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and what did he attempt to ACCOMPLISH in declaring war? At the time, he had no prospects for invasion... |
He accomplished destroying a significantly large number of American merchant vessels, especially the vital oil tankers, during Operation Drumbeat. This somewhat limited the operational options opened to the Allies until they could replace these losses. Although this wasn't worth war with the United States by any means, it was still significant.
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:22
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Instead of siding with their allies, Germany, Italy declared war on their allies, believing it better... |
Well, they sat out at first, only declaring war in 1915 when the Entente promised them more territorial gains than the Germans did, and also promised them the territory they wanted in Austria-Hungary.
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:22
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Actually I agree with your post as well, but I'd add that just because we have and will continue to do those things doesn't make them right.
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DarkCloud
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of Lists
Jul 2000
time: 05:22
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No, but they would have lost their communications and transportation hub, which would have been just as significant. |
But Moscow was a symbol- the unassilable point, unable to be taken by Napoleon, etc. Its loss would have hurt morale greatly. And then the forces would have been forced to fight a guerilla war in the Urals
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He accomplished destroying a significantly large number of American merchant vessels, especially the vital oil tankers, during Operation Drumbeat. This somewhat limited the operational options opened to the Allies until they could replace these losses. Although this wasn't worth war with the United States by any means, it was still significant. |
I agree that was good, but if he had merely sunk without declaring war (as the Allies thought Hitler had been doing all along) perhaps it would have taken a few more days... possibly a few weeks for the Americans to get their act together. Although, possibly it wouldn't have... Who can say?
America declaring war on Germany was inevitable so long as they were allied with Japan.
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Russia had a lot of mfg capability, but as Germany rebuilt their shattered provinces, they gained much wheat, supply lines, and mfg production... They could have lasted a few more years. Possibly 46-48 If they only fought Russia... and If they ignored Britain, except for leaving token forces, and sent their airforces to the East... coupled with the NAfrica forces, they should have been able to have beaten back the Russians.
IT would have been close... But I think the Germans could have done it.
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:22
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quote:
But Moscow was a symbol- the unassilable point, unable to be taken by Napoleon, etc. Its loss would have hurt morale greatly. And then the forces would have been forced to fight a guerilla war in the Urals |
Well, Moscow was taken by Napoleon in the Winter of 1812. He just couldn't hold it because the Russians razed most of it first and there was no shelter left.
But if Germany took Moscow the Russians probably would have fought on. The Chinese did when their capitol was taken, albeit ineffectively of course.
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I agree that was good, but if he had merely sunk without declaring war (as the Allies thought Hitler had been doing all along) perhaps it would have taken a few more days... possibly a few weeks for the Americans to get their act together. Although, possibly it wouldn't have... Who can say? |
Maybe, but I'm not sure how relevent a couple of weeks would have been - and a second sneak attack in one week would probably have inflamed the US even more.
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America declaring war on Germany was inevitable so long as they were allied with Japan |
Hmmm, maybe - but even after Pearl Harbor there wouldn't have been enough votes for a declaration of war against Germany, until Germany did it first.
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but as Germany rebuilt their shattered provinces, they gained much wheat, supply lines, and mfg production... They could have lasted a few more years. Possibly 46-48 If they only fought Russia... and If they ignored Britain, except for leaving token forces, and sent their airforces to the East... coupled with the NAfrica forces, they should have been able to have beaten back the Russians. |
Well, in the East it wasn't so much a lack of forces that defeated the Germans, it was poor timing and poor strategic decisions. The Germans could have had Moscow in October of 1941, and then turned to the Ukraine briefly in 1941 and finished it in 1942. Leningrad likewise would have been gone if Moscow fell - Moscow was the center of Soviet north-south rail transportation until rail lines were rebuilt behind the Volga, and without this transportation the Germans could have defeated the Red Army in detail.
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Capt Dizle
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If people here would get off the internet and listen to the radio they might know stuff. The following quote should end any debate about the character of America.
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President Bush on Saturday closed out the final hours of his 32-day escape from Washington by designating September as a month of service to honor victims of Sept. 11.
"That spirit of courage and selflessness has shown the world why our nation is the greatest force for good in history," Bush said from his Texas ranch in his weekly radio address
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GeneralTacticus
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of Melbourne, Australia
Dec 2001
time: 15:22
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SD, Could you amplify your thoughts here. By Dec. 7, 1941, the US had all but declared war on Germany and Japan through Lend Lease and the Embargo respectively. We were threatening the Axis, not the other way around.
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The embargo on Japan was a response to their entirely unjustified war of aggression in China, while Lend-Lease was to help defend Britain against equally unjustified German aggression.
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and to some extent, China's democracy. |
What democracy??? China before and throughout the war was divided between the Kuomintang, who ran a repressive dictatorship, and the Communists, who weren't particularly democratic either.
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Since WWII, I think the US has continued its aggressived defense of democracy and human rights. This is how we think of ourselves, btw. It is part of our national culture. |
How exactly is the support of brutal dictators throughout the Third World an 'aggressive defence of democracy and human rights'?
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GeneralTacticus
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of Melbourne, Australia
Dec 2001
time: 15:22
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Stalinism? Ended with Kruschev? I'm sure the various victims of the KGB would laugh at that one. I am being kind in my use of terms. I personally feel that Marx would turn in his grave if he knew about the Soviets right down to near the end. I do him and others the courtesy of not referring to them as 'Communists' for these sorts of discussions. |
I said STALINISM ended with Kruschev, not dictatorship. I'm not arguing that the Soviets were nice, but the USSR was far bette after Stalin than before.
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Democracies? Germany, Japan... pretty significant, no? How about in the long run? Poland, Hungary, the Czechs and the Slovaks too, etc. |
Democracy in Germany and Japan was before the Cold War really began. And how exactly did US action bring about democracy in Eastern Europe?
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As for the Americas, one word. Cuba. Yup, les Amis are nuts on the subject, but it isn't as if they had nothing to fret about during the Cold War. And if you think the Sandinistas materialized themselves out of nothing with no outside support, I have a bridge for sale just for you. |
Does the appearance of a political group which you don't like justify destroying an entire national economy? The Contras were set up for the specific purpose of attacking civilian targets such as health clinics and agricultural collectives.
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Were there a whole boat load of bad things happening in many countries sponsored by both sides? You bet. Boy scouts don't win wars. |
How exactly was the US any better than the USSR during the Cold War? The dictatorships they set up weren't intended to give way to democracy whenpossible, they were there to prevent democracy.
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01-09-2002 06:33
I did not take tanks into consideration. The USSR did have a greater production capacity. Japan could not have held the land... But I still maintain that their mere presence would have pinned more units...
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