05-09-2002 20:07									#91
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quote: Originally posted by Rasbelin If you have been surfing around for information and discussions/outbursts related to this new law, you have most likely seen plenty of rants and general discussion. In general I would recommend signing the petitions and using gameland.gr as a starting point for your excurison into this subject.

I don't live in greece, but I can I join? I promise to use all of my poly DLs.

	05-09-2002 22:48									#92
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Good God Almighty . . . whatever next?

	05-09-2002 22:56									#93
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

God is dead.

	05-09-2002 23:07									#94
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

USA governement bans terroists, Greece bans electronic games, each with some colatteral casualties. Which program looks better to the Euro commies.

	05-09-2002 23:12									#95
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola USA governement bans terroists, Greece bans electronic games, each with some colatteral casualties. Which program looks better to the Euro commies.

Yeah but terrorists in the US are like electronic games in Greece. They both exist (play) nevertheless.

	05-09-2002 23:24									#96
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 God is dead.

All right, who killed Her?

quote: Yeah but terrorists in the US are like electronic games in Greece. They both exist (play) nevertheless.

Too true!

	06-09-2002 00:19									#97
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Who wants to join the betting pool on how long this will last?

	06-09-2002 01:13									#98
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Wow, that's even funnier than the legal fact that pinball machines were considered gambling machines in the USA and in many states deemed illegal (for decades).

Moral: there are plenty of silly laws to go around

	06-09-2002 01:21									#99
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quote: Originally posted by CapTVK Wow, that's even funnier than the legal fact that pinball machines were considered gambling machines in the USA and in many states deemed illegal (for decades).

You'll notice that we grew out of that. Greece seems content to act like little children and regress in comparison to the rest of the world. Which admittedly is easy to do with the EU helping to prop up thier 3rd world economy.

	06-09-2002 01:32									#100
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Seeing as there are not much pinball machines to go around these days you indeed "grew out of that". Evolving markets and consumer preferences might have played a large part in that but a silly gambling law does provide for plenty of extra nails for the coffin.


The law was meant to prevent electronic gambling in street cafes and internet shops -it overshot the mark- and will be amended -in time-

	06-09-2002 01:34									#101
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd The US Constitution and US Bill of Rights set up limits on the federal government. The federal government, because of these documents, could not ban a videogame.

What about the numerous examples of books, music, movies, etc being banned or regulated such that they are effectively banned?

	06-09-2002 02:25									#102
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Hmm...

Does this mean, since games got banned, that only way for some Greek player to play Civ3:PtW is to get pirated copy?

Since anyway, how are you supposed to buy original gaming software legaly if it's illegal?



P.S.
Greeks should probably, in next elections (if they don't get banned too ), vote for some more normal candidates.

Since all this looks more like a work of some religious fanatic, and not of some responsibile politician.

	06-09-2002 02:42									#103
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Any government that bans video games is a terrorist state. All I need to do is submit this information to the Bush administration and Greece will be on the list for vaporization. Enjoy your country Mark, it will be gone soon.

	06-09-2002 03:01									#104
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quote: Originally posted by Thorn Any government that bans video games is a terrorist state. All I need to do is submit this information to the Bush administration and Greece will be on the list for vaporization. Enjoy your country Mark, it will be gone soon.

Actually it's just enough to condemn Greece for having weapons of mass destruction, and start a "witch hunting".

	06-09-2002 03:50									#105
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by CapTVK The law was meant to prevent electronic gambling in street cafes and internet shops -it overshot the mark- and will be amended -in time-

Considering how slow government works, I think within a few years.

	06-09-2002 04:09									#106
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

everyone should sign the petition at www.gameland.gr

	06-09-2002 06:15									#107
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Sorry, but there's no petition there.

Here's a brief list (2nd copy) on different activities.

Current petitions

Greek gaming community in danger
Greek Internet Cafe Union - Real life paranoia!

Feedback

quote: gameland.gr Post your thoughts regarding this law to the Greek Parliament. The law is "Proedriko Diatagma 174, Teyxos 1, 30 July 2002 'Apagoreush Paigniwn.' "

Hellenic parliament

	06-09-2002 17:41									#108
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Man i can't believe some one in this post actually said 'Euro Commies' anyway i'm not getting into yankie baiting.

ifyou read this you'll find its not quite as bad as all that

---------------------
Article 1
Game categories
---------------------
According to notion of the commands of the current law:
a. Mechanical games are those, for whose operation it is necessary to use muscle force.
b. Electrical games are those, for whose operation it is necessary to be dependent on electrical mechanisms.
c. Electromechanical games are those, for whose operation it is necessary to be dependent on electrical
mechanisms AND use muscle force.
d. Electronical games are those, for whose operation it is necessary to be dependent on electrical
mechanisms that also have some calculating (accounting) program.
e. Entertainment "technical" games are those, whose result depends exclusively on the ability and skill of the
player, and its use is solely for entertainment.

The Entertainment "technical" category also includes all card games which had been characterised as
"technical" games, according to the statement of law F.E.K A21.

only cat B and D games are banned, which would mean MS Excel is illegal??

	06-09-2002 18:56									#109
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Lucarse only cat B and D games are banned, which would mean MS Excel is illegal??

Then why the hell have a computer/latop/cell phone... hell, I'm guessing even CD players are next.

	07-09-2002 10:29									#110
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quote: a. Mechanical games are those, for whose operation it is necessary to use muscle force.

Wow, I'd love tobe able to play a computer game without using any muscles... don't have to worry about the health side effects!

	07-09-2002 11:10									#111
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Since windows does include minesweeper and solitaire, is it now illegal in Greece?

	07-09-2002 11:51									#112
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Hm. Don't know about the absurd ways of lawyer's thinking. Absurd physicist's thinking: Given the fact that there are no real random generators in most computers, you can, given the knowlegde about the algorithm and the skill to compute the random numbers quickly, predict all outcomes. Therefore, Computer games depends exclusively on the ability and skill of the player. Moreover, it is used solely for entertainment (ok, this is true for any game in my book). Thus, Civ is in category e, which is not banned. Case closed. Windows and Excel belong to d), because they are not solely for entertainment.

	07-09-2002 13:39									#113
	Suffering from ads?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/2238242.stm

game over!

	07-09-2002 18:21									#114
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Aaah, it is to be selectively enforced. Fertile ground for the government to harass people at its whim with threats of prosecution. Added to that it fosters an unhealthy disregard for the law in general.

	07-09-2002 20:26									#115
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Well, let's look on the bright side. This is finally a good excuse to go back to the original board game.

	08-09-2002 05:47									#116
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I have just signed the petition at gameland.gr.

It occurs to me that every single copy of MS Windows in Greece is now illegal, as they contain solitaire, hearts etc. It is clearly also illegal to sell MS Windows. I bet Microsoft are pleased (not)!

According to the material I read, the legislators could not agree on a definition of electronic game which includes gambling games but excludes other types, so (the welfare of the few taking precedence over the happiness of the masses), they just banned everything. Didn't they consider the consequences? *** on!

	08-09-2002 05:48									#117
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Ooh. er first word censored by the machine.

	11-09-2002 15:42									#118
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There is a report that a Thessaloniki court has ruled the law unconstitutional.

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/020911/4/d9ckj.html

Not being familiar with the Greek legal system I don't know what's likely to happen next. Possibilities:

- government appeals to a higher court
- govt tries another case using this law in a different court
- govt repeals the original law (& puts a more sensible one in place)
- nothing
- none of the above.

EDIT: And yes, I didn't see the heading "Greek Gamers Play On" when I logged on here. I just read the Yahoo article & immediately popped in here to post.

I am unclear why both the BBC and the Yahoo article describe the ruling as putting the courts "on a collision course" with the state. If the courts have powers to rule on constitutionality surely there is no collision course.

I believe Greece is a signatory of the ECHR, right? I can't believe anyone would take it that far though.

Last edited by Proserpine on 11-09-2002 at 16:01

	11-09-2002 16:32									#119
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: It is clearly also illegal to sell MS Windows

not really.
selling game is ok. installing them and playing them is not

quote: If the courts have powers to rule on constitutionality surely there is no collision course

if one thing is here and goes this way, and another is there and goes on the opposite, by definition they will collide

	11-09-2002 19:18									#120
	Tired of ads?

You want to get attention? Post a site for young and future greek voter who, because of this BS will never vote for that party again.