05-09-2002 09:37									#121
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quote: Don't make fun of his friends because they have an appearance disorder which causes them to be transparant...

Have you noticed so far I have ignored your diatribe, stuck to the issue and so far have made no personal comments about you?

Try it sometime who knows you may even learn something?

	05-09-2002 09:38									#122
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quote: Originally posted by blackice Have you noticed so far I have ignored your diatribe, stuck to the issue and so far have made no personal comments about you? Try it sometime who knows you may even learn something?

That comment was made to a drunken Sava, not you.

And BTW, you haven't stuck to the issue. You've avoided the issue completely of how Canada would force Alberta to comply. You said something about withholding funding, but Alberta contributes more than it receives, so that doesn't do much.

	05-09-2002 09:38									#123
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

no ddue he was talking about me... he was ripping on me cuz Im'; stupid..

	05-09-2002 09:40									#124
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quote: Originally posted by Sava no ddue he was talking about me... he was ripping on me cuz Im'; stupid..

I wouldn't say you are stupid based upon your posting tonight...

If you have anything you would like to tell us, feel free to make a thread (or use the one I made for you).

Jon Miller

	05-09-2002 09:49									#125
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Perhaps surprisingly, some Alberta companies are not divided. They want to meet the Kyoto target and say it's time to get started.

One of those companies is TransAlta, the biggest utility company in the province. Ironically, TransAlta is also the single largest producer of greenhouse gases in Alberta. It wants rules for reducing them.

TransAlta Vice President Bob Page heads the company's division on Sustainable Development.

"The longer we wait the more difficult it will be and the more radical of measures that will have to be taken," Page says.

"So this current sort of drift from a policy point of view is something that I think harms environmental groups and harms industry and harms everybody."

Alberta has been the toughest critic of the Kyoto target. Right from the start, Premier Ralph Klein, said he wasn't going to live up to it, and that Ottawa better not try to bully him. But people watching the political process in Alberta, have noticed that it's public position has changed.

"There was a significant shift in rhetoric about a year ago and that shift in rhetoric was caused largely by a bunch of leading industry people in Alberta going and knocking on the Premiers door and saying 'Hey, this issue is for real and it's moving forward and we better get engaged and get our head out of the sand,'" Hornung says.

Alberta has changed it's tune. It's now at the helm of some of the national talks on what's to be done. It's also set up an office called Climate Change Central, to discuss the issue with industry.

"Alberta's industries are carbon based and it could have a disproportionate affect on Alberta. That's why industry and the province want to take a leadership role in making sure we reduce greenhouse gas emissions," Mar says.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/national/magazine/kyoto/

Most if not all of Alberta's leading polluters agree, Asher does not...

Bottom line they see profits Asher does not.

Now if Klein actually more than lipsinc why not sign the accord? The companies are behind the idea...

	05-09-2002 09:49									#126
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quote: Originally posted by St Leo Why are you assuming that an independent Alberta would join the US? I admit that the wacko ratio in Alberta is similar to the one in the US, but it could do quite well on its own or in cahoots with BC.

Damned by faint praise?

And wtf would you know about Alberta and Albertans?

quote: Originally posted by Asher I think the most likely occurance is, upon separation from Canada, would be to become a US Territory.

I hope you were smoking crack when you typed that. Go from the outhouse of Ontario to the Puerto Rico of the North? It's called state hood or forget it!

Even then, I'm not sure that most Albertans would be totally pleased with the terms of union.

Personally, it would be a crying shame if this project of Canada failed. However, I do not see people around these parts sitting still for our economy being totalled by edict from Ottawa a second time. That's just my views on the mood around here.

As far as the 'interesting people' from Central Canada are concerned... I'll tell you what. We'll gladly shut down one oil field for each factory and every thousand vehicles you moth ball. Fair?

	05-09-2002 09:50									#127
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I see the profits, for **** sake.

The companies will do anything for the profits.

If they'll profit from it, WHY DO THEY NEED THE GOVERNMENT TO *FORCE* THEM TO DO IT?

	05-09-2002 09:50									#128
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Sava no that was a chat with Asher not you. You man have livened up the conversation. thanks

	05-09-2002 09:52									#129
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither I hope you were smoking crack when you typed that. Go from the outhouse of Ontario to the Puerto Rico of the North? It's called state hood or forget it!

Statehood ain't all it's cracked up to be. Territories have more autonomy...

You realize that, with a few exceptions, most States don't even have control over their resources? What about stuff like drinking age too?

	05-09-2002 09:52									#130
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quote: I'll tell you what. We'll gladly shut down one oil field for each factory and every thousand vehicles you moth ball. Fair?

You have to go a long way Ontario is second from the bottom in GHG's Alberta is the top.

	05-09-2002 09:54									#131
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Asher think beyond the transfer payments you do not read a thing and or ignore the facts. Taxes breaks etc etc. Give it a rest man get with the program

	05-09-2002 09:55									#132
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quote: Originally posted by blackice Asher think beyond the transfer payments you do not read a thing and or ignore the facts. Taxes breaks etc etc. Give it a rest man get with the program

Stop avoiding the damn issue.

If Kyoto rules increase everyone's profits, why do you need the government to force everyone to do it?

	05-09-2002 09:55									#133
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quote: Originally posted by Asher You realize that, with a few exceptions, most States don't even have control over their resources? What about stuff like drinking age too?

Exactly my point.

That, and as well as the guy next door to me suddenly owning an uzi.

	05-09-2002 09:56									#134
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quote: The companies will do anything for the profits.

No chit sherlock so even if Koyto is not implimented and the energy cost to produce is why to high here, because of lack of energy efficiency they are going to go to the other place anyway right?

Man it does not take a geneous to see that.

	05-09-2002 09:57									#135
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by blackice quote: I'll tell you what. We'll gladly shut down one oil field for each factory and every thousand vehicles you moth ball. Fair? You have to go a long way Ontario is second from the bottom in GHG's Alberta is the top.

That's because we're extracting the resources. Duh!

You need 'em, we produce 'em. It's a simple equation really.

	05-09-2002 09:58									#136
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quote: If Kyoto rules increase everyone's profits, why do you need the government to force everyone to do it?

Oh come on man what are they doing now?
64% increase in GHG's by 2010 2-4th per capita oh ya man give the man some rope.....

	05-09-2002 10:00									#137
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blackice, still avoiding the issue.

Simple question:
If Kyoto increases profits, why do you need to force everyone to abide by it?

	05-09-2002 10:01									#138
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by blackice 64% increase in GHG's by 2010 2-4th per capita oh ya man give the man some rope.....

Where are the corresponding figures for:
1) Population growth
2) Industry growth

Giving huge numbers out does nothing when you don't look at what might cause it. It's not because everything's inefficient, it's because the quantity of people living here is the fastest growing in Canada, and the oil industry is having amazing growth. You produce more, you pollute more. If you wanna pollute less, you produce less.

	05-09-2002 10:03									#139
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quote: You need 'em, we produce 'em. It's a simple equation really.

uh huh we import simple huh

	05-09-2002 10:08									#140
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quote: Where are the corresponding figures for:

It has been posted Asher.

Asher because they are doing it and causing pollution. Now they have to do it and not cause pollution. If you read the article you once again dismiss with the wave of your fairy wand...You would see the companies want the government to share in the cost. One way or the other they know they have to. Companies do not do things to make money without trying to make more off the idea.
Simple really, one way or the other someone has to pay for the r$d...It sure as hel* will not be the oil companies. Never has been has it?

	05-09-2002 10:10									#141
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quote: Originally posted by blackice It has been posted Asher.

I must have missed them, feel free to repost.

If companies do actually profit from it, they will do it. They do not need the government forcing them to do it.

Very simple, you keep avoiding it.

	05-09-2002 10:10									#142
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quote: Originally posted by blackice quote: You need 'em, we produce 'em. It's a simple equation really. uh huh we import simple huh

OK, good. What do we tell the 40K or 50K people in Alberta who are suddenly unemployed by that decision? BTW, that's only the direct job loses. Triple it once the trickle down effects are felt. Do you think confederation is worth flushing over this?

BTW, what do we tell the Americans who like having the Oil Sands developed so that NA has access to reserves that surpass Saudi Arabia's?

'Sorry Uncle Sam, we no like diggin for that stuff no more.'

You wanna start that trade war? You wanna start those tanks moving?

This ain't no small matter. The way the feds attempt to enact this treaty are very important to a lot of people. Prolly more to you than to me in the long run. In the end, the oil will flow.

	05-09-2002 10:13									#143
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Recap:
Oil production causes pollution.
Oil consumption causes pollution.
Oil production industry in Alberta has increased substantially since 1990, technology reducing individual emissions for these plants has also been implemented. The result is, given the same number of plants in 1990, there would be a lot less pollution now.

However, there are way more plants, and almost all of them are using very modern technology (as you said yourself, this allows for more profits).

So then Kyoto enters the picture. We suddenly have to get back to 1990 levels, despite way more plants.

The only way to get to that level is to shut stuff down. That is fact.

Not only is this reverting to levels 12 years old, but a timewarp of 22 years in 2012 when it must be implemented by. Not only must we dramatically (and magically) reduce pollution of existing plants of today to 1990 levels, we must halt all future growth until 2012.

It'll undeniably cause great economic damage to Alberta, and on top of that we're not stopping any pollution anyway. We're just moving it from Alberta to Ecuador.

	05-09-2002 10:19									#144
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Small picture with limited views China is doing it now, reaping the rewards while very few Albertans whine about it.

Next.

	05-09-2002 10:21									#145
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Perhaps we should also adopt China's awesome human rights laws.

They are indeed an example for us all!

Next.

It's pretty easy for them to say they're implementing Kyoto. The government will probably end up altering measurements and gleefully exclaim they exceeded Kyoto's requirements by 2012.

What's more, even if they did truly implement it, it's pretty easy to stop companies from leaving your country when you're communist.

	05-09-2002 10:39									#146
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uh huh

	05-09-2002 10:42									#147
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Don't mind us, we're Albertans, we don't know anything and like to whine about things just to piss you off.

You know that.

	05-09-2002 10:46									#148
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uh huh

	05-09-2002 11:13									#149
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Exactly my point. That, and as well as the guy next door to me suddenly owning an uzi.

Yeah, but you could pick up a couple of M-16s and then everything is even, right.

	05-09-2002 11:14									#150
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quote: Originally posted by Sava I'm curious, is his name pronounced like the insult "Cretin"? or like the exercise supplement "Creatine"?

Its pronounced something like Chre-tchien