08-09-2002 06:36									#1
	New "Ancient Empires" PBEM created Support Apolyton

I've just completed a PBEM version of "Seeds of Greatness", the Ancient Era Empire Building scenario. There are two playable variants, "standard" and Barbarian Wrath (this should be hell-on-wheels in PBEM!) All seven civs are playable (Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Greece, Persia, Hatti, & the Minoans) and the game now uses a single Event file (which gives enslavement capability to ALL civs, among other things).

If anyone is interested, the game can be downloaded from here:

http://www.cullivan.com/civ/scenarios/sog/index.htm

The very first "Barbarian Wrath" PBEM has begun! There's a 24 hour time limit for the first 20 turns (that's would be 20 each - thru 3300 BC), 72 hours thereafter. The order of play is as follows:

Hittite - Straybow
Babylonian - SlowThinker
Assyrian - Zedd (New)
Egypt - Kull
Persia - Peaster
Greek - kengel
Minoan - La Fayette

(Previous players: diegoami-Hittites, Chris 62-Hittites, Civfan-Babylonians, Yop73-Minoans, Steve Clark-Greeks, Stefan Härtel-Persians, germanos-Assyrians)

House Rules:
1) No Reloading
2) No diplomacy until after the first physical unit contact between two civs.
3) No map sharing until both civs have discovered the "Map Making" advance (does not prohibit sharing jpeg and gif maps during discussions on boundaries, etc.)

Last edited by Kull on 22-03-2005 at 10:26

	08-09-2002 15:06									#2
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I downloaded the scen, and I'm gonna practice a little.
Later, I'll pick a civ, though the Hatti, Minoans and Egyptians sound cool.

Yop

	08-09-2002 15:47									#3
	Put an end to popups!

I like the Minoans, so sign me in for them.

	08-09-2002 15:55									#4
	Houserules Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

During this game, some houserules have been discussed.
Many thanks go to SlowThinker who leads the ongoing effort. Thanks to all who have contributed.
Special thanks to Rah who made a thread on some houserules in the MP games he playes. To a large extent our rules expand on ideas posted there, and special adaptations are made for PBEM play.


There is still some debate on some of the rules, but there is a nice set allready established.

Draft 3.0 of the houserules

Last edited by germanos on 06-11-2004 at 18:18

	09-09-2002 01:27									#5
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I've been testing out the "Wrath" variant in a single-person game, and it IS something different, let me tell you. TOTALLY unlike anything you normally see in a scenario.

One thing to consider from a PBEM standpoint - since each player starts with a single city on a huge map of the Eastern Med, it might be best to change the usual rules and give each player 5 turns before sending it on (at least thru turn 70 or the first major Barbarian spawn - whichever comes first). Given the slow build-up of the early game, releasing control of your civ to the AI isn't as crippling as it sounds (plus, everyone else has the same handicap). The alternative is a painfully slow opening game.

I'll be incommunicado from 9/9 thru 9/20, but would be happy to join in on a PBEM game when I return. In the meantime, anyone who's interested can either start without me (I'll take whatever civ is left) or just use the time to get familiar with SoG and learn how to handle the massive Barbarian Onslaughts.

Note: The best preparation is to play as one of the mainland civs like Assyria, Persia, or Babylon - I'm currently playing as Assyria and have THREE hordes assaulting my border cities!

	09-09-2002 01:36									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Kull One thing to consider from a PBEM standpoint - since each player starts with a single city on a huge map of the Eastern Med, it might be best to change the usual rules and give each player 5 turns before sending it on (at least thru turn 70 or the first major Barbarian spawn - whichever comes first). Given the slow build-up of the early game, releasing control of your civ to the AI isn't as crippling as it sounds (plus, everyone else has the same handicap). The alternative is a painfully slow opening game.

Alternatively, we could start with a online MP game to kick it off
A few hours should make a decent beginning. We can then PBEM from there.

	09-09-2002 20:37									#7
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So, are we going to play Barbarian wrath?
I thought the normal version.

	16-09-2002 22:52									#8
	Got spare money?

*BUMP*
We still need other players.
Germanos, which tribe are you going to take?
I'm playing the Minoans, so the rest are still open.

	16-09-2002 23:42									#9
	Inflate your Upload Space

I'll take the Assyrians.

	21-09-2002 00:13									#10
	Full PM-box? Change here!

People, it's a great scen. You should really download it, and play it. (and then join this PBEM)

	23-09-2002 06:14									#11
	Inflate your Upload Space

I agree, it's a great scenario. In fact, one of the best. However, I'm personally not wild about a PBEM where you start by founding your first city. I suspect others might agree with me that a PBEM is more fun with a number of well established empires contending with one another for domination. IMHO, "End of the Bronze Age" would make a more interesting PBEM.

	23-09-2002 18:28									#12
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Although I agree with tecumseh about personal preferences, I simply have a weakness for this scenario.
I'll take the Persians (duh!)

	23-09-2002 20:04									#13
	Got spare money?

If Kull wants, he can adjust the scen, so it starts in like 1500 bc., with every empire having like 5 cities, 3 slaves, a '5' size capital and a wonder. (lighthouse for the Minoans please )
What do you think about that?

	24-09-2002 03:22									#14
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Well it looks like we're up to four players:

Stefan: Persia (shocking!)
yop73: Minoans
germanos: Assyria
Kull: (Egypt, unless someone else wants them)

A few things to sort out before starting:

1) Start Sequence: There's a couple options here:

A - Just start at the beginning (not recommended - as Tecumseh rightly points out, the opening sequence is great when playing alone but would take forever to do by email)

B - Allow the AI to handle your Civ during portions of the opening sequence. Each person could play 3 turns (or some number) and the next person follows suit - for say the first 30 to 50 turns (faster, but what WILL the AI do to our civs!?!)

C - Simultaneous play. Agree to play a certain number of turns (30 or so) solo, then each person sends their game to a trusted third party. This person then uses the cheat menu to recreate each civ's achievements on a single map and then forwards he "fixed" game to the next person in line. (Sounds good on the surface but I'm not sure how it would work in practice. We'd probably need some "house rules", such as restricting movement to a certain zone around each capital city, prohibiting interaction with AI civs, etc. Also, which AI civ opening position would be chosen? And then there's the not so small matter of finding someone willing to stitch it all together)

D - Multiplayer. As germanos suggested, we all agree to "meet" online for an hour or so and get the game off to a rousing start. This may be the best alternative if we can all agree on a date and time - plus what ARE the tricks for getting multiplayer to work over the Internet? (My only experience is via LAN)

2) Additional Players: Is four enough? Should we wait for others to show up or actively hunt down some more? This is my first PBEM game ever, so you tell me.

3) Standard or Wrath? My preference is Wrath, if only because it's not featured in any other scenario and it WILL shock the bejesus out of anyone who's never experienced it!

4) When to begin: We need to discuss these options, but at some point the game has to start. My vote would be to resolve everything by this coming weekend and start off Friday night or Saturday

Thoughts?

	24-09-2002 03:41									#15
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quote: Originally posted by yop73 If Kull wants, he can adjust the scen, so it starts in like 1500 bc., with every empire having like 5 cities, 3 slaves, a '5' size capital and a wonder. (lighthouse for the Minoans please ) What do you think about that?

The only problem here is that we'd be looking at a completely new scenario! It's not a bad idea - and possibly the best solution yet for customizing SoG for PBEM, but there's a LOT that needs to be considered - and implemented:

1) Which Wonder should each Civ receive? This would definitely make the game a little more "Civ3-like" since each Civ would now have a built-in cultural difference. (Egypt with Pyramids would grow faster, Babylon with Hanging Gardens would delay happiness problems, etc) But there's a real possibility for imbalance if not thought out carefully.

2) If the start year goes to 1500 BC (or even 2500), should Techs be granted to reflect this? Or do we just open up in 4000BC , but with more cities and units? (As Tecumseh suggested, the best bet for a 1500 BC game would be "End of the Bronze Age" - but tweaked to add some of the SoG lessons learned)

Again - good idea - but not something that can be implemented immediately.

	24-09-2002 19:59									#16
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Well, one week, (or even two) in PBEM-time is nothing, so there's no need to rush. I'll think about all the possibilities, but we do need more players, because otherwise, some players might get advantages over the other ...

	24-09-2002 21:34									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Thanks Paul for your PM. Yes, I am interested (I need to take a break from Medieval:Total War). Like Stefan, I have real weakness for what I consider to be the greatest Civ2 scenario of all time. Let me take the time to read through this thread, reacquantining myself with this scenario. I have never done a Civ2 PBEM (or even MP) so expect me to be the first to get wiped out. As far who to chose, I prefer Egypt but if you cranked the barbs up, that's not going to be pretty. So instead, I'll choose the Greeks since that was the civ that I played last time.

	24-09-2002 23:31									#18
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

As far as I know, there are not many tricks for MP over the internet. The only thing important is a host with a sound internet connection. And all players should have the game in a folder with exactly the same name (and Path?), so that should be easy to arrange.

My connection is OK, but not particularly great. If somebody got ADSL or the like, I would support that person to host.

I'm not sure, but the Host must be the first player to move in the game. This does not necassary have to be the one who plays first in the Scenario. If f.e. the third player will host, then the first two players just treat the start as a regular PBEM, and we start the online game from there. (I'm not completely sure about this, but I did online trading of techs in a PBEM, while my Civ was later 'in line-up' then my counterpart, and it worked fine)


To Steve:
Welcome

As long as you keep in mind we are just playing like you, and not like the AI, you should do fine. At least you played the scen before I have only seen my starting position so far

	25-09-2002 00:29									#19
	... Increase Your PM Length

Generally, it's a good idea to do the multiplayer session, but I warn you that my settings are antique, so that might take a while. As for the time, I think the weekend (though not Friday) will be fine with me.

	26-09-2002 00:09									#20
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Just got through reading this thread and realized that the original SoG scenario that I played may not be the same as this updated one. Besides the Wrath, what are the other differences?

As far as the options, I'm torn. My schedule is not conducive to MP but it is for PBEM. First, I'm a little confused as to the mechanism. You say a player takes 5 turns. Are the other civs then controlled by the AI during the five turns? What happens next, do I then pass the file onto the next player who takes his 5 turns and so on? We gets to start first? Perhaps the dumb question is how does Civ2-PBEM work?

I am more inclined to have the scenario reworked a little (sorry Paul) so that we have a bigger civ at start, but not sure yet.

	26-09-2002 00:47									#21
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Well, the idea is as follows...

Since SoG is a start-from-the-scratch-empire building game, an immense amount of patience is required to get the game going. The thing simply is, that even to the most patient people, this gets boring after a while. The very first PBEM I was in stopped after 5 or 6 turns due to this, and I didn't touch PBEM for the next half year or so.
So the idea is, to get an "advanced start", i.e. playing a couple of turns with AI opponents, then pass the game on to the next player, so he does the same, etc. to a certain turn, so we can play PBEM from then on. Every player starts with an advanced empire, and since the AI has handled each one for the same amount of time, it is likely that there will be a balance between all players, so the game becomes more interesting.
I don't think I need to explain how a PBEM works... you play your civ one turn, then save it in *.NET format and post it here, so the next player can download it and play his civ, etc.

	27-09-2002 16:31									#22
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I think an MP session is the most fair option, and we don't have to bother about imbalances, since we then created them ourselves

I would be able to play this weekend. I guess sometime in the evening for the Euro's would allow the Noth-Americans to join around mid-day.

I can't figure out all the time-zone's from the thread... Do we have 1 American and the rest Euro's?

	27-09-2002 22:37									#23
	Gakkk!!! Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Grrrrr!

I'm a few thousand miles from home, and just discovered that my MGE CD is not here. And since that #$%&^ version REQUIRES the CD in order to run (unlike FW)......I'm outta luck (won't be able to hook up with my CD until Thursday, 10/3).

Since this is "my bad", you guys can go ahead with the MP session this weekend, and I can take over whatever position the AI leaves the Egyptians in when it shifts to PBEM.

	27-09-2002 23:13									#24
	Got spare money?

You could also just download the "no cd patch" from civfanatics

	28-09-2002 03:29									#25
	Re: Gakkk!!! Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Kull Since this is "my bad", you guys can go ahead with the MP session this weekend, and I can take over whatever position the AI leaves the Egyptians in when it shifts to PBEM.

Same here, I just don't have the schedule that can accomodate MP. I still prefer if there would be a better way but since we want to get going, I'll take over the Greeks in whatever position they are at. I'm sure that it will be in a more disadvantageous position than what poor job I would do so I expect this to be a short game for me.

	28-09-2002 07:13									#26
	Inflate your Upload Space

I was just reviewing my logs and I know that there are three sites I want my first Greek cities to be. I wonder what is the best way for me to get those three sites so I could have a slim chance of staying alive? If MP is the only way, then I would have to be open for that, somehow.

	28-09-2002 11:51									#27
	Remove this text

Alternatively, we could just get started

Since our first 20 turns or so could be done pretty quick, maybe we can get the game fast through these rounds. Sometimes there are these PBEM's that move really fast over the days.


I would prefer anything over an AI messing up with my Tribe, and I would like to enjoy the full pleasure of discovering the world around me myself, so since MP seems to be impossible to arrange I say:

GET THIS PBEM MOVING !

Is the playing order the same as the civ-list at the start-up screen? That will be then:

Hittite - Civfan
Babylonian - Diegoami
Assyrian - germanos
Egypt - Kull
Persia - Stefan
Greek - Steve
Minoan - Yop

And on what level do we play? King is used often so that the AI playes at a reasonable level, but I'm open for higher settings as well.

Last edited by germanos on 01-10-2002 at 21:43

	28-09-2002 21:45									#28
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

May I join as hittite btw ?

	29-09-2002 01:51									#29
	Remove this text

Can i join as the Babylons

	29-09-2002 01:58									#30
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Can i join as the Babylons