12-09-2002 23:08									#1
	Historical Finger Pointing, Issue I: World War I Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Welcome to the first in what I hope will be a grand tradition (copyright Boris Godunov 2002) of laying the blame!

That's right, it's time for unabashed finger pointing at just who was responsible for history's great tragedies and stupidities. No need to confine yourself to pleasantries here...just rant on which party was culpable! No personal insults to other posters, of course.

Our first issue is a biggie. It's World War I, that cataclysmic eruption of human stupidity that cost millions of lives, resolved nothing and ultimately probably led to the even bigger catastrophe of World War II.

History blamed the Germans, as they lost, and to the victors go the spoils and the right to assign blame. But lately, people are taking a more pan-condemning approach, lessening Germany's culpability and pointing out how all the powers were responsible for the mess.

Well, forget about such niceties! We want to assign blame here, and so I ask you: Who was the most culpable nation? If you feel so inclined, state why as well.

Here is a succinct view of how I understand the blame game goes, meant to express my own ideas, not what should be used as a basis for your own opinion:

1. Austria-Hungary.

They had been sticking their pointy helmets into the affairs of the Balkans for some time. Their belligerent and unreasonable ultimatum to Serbia was meant to precipitate a war, although they had no idea how big it would become. They started it!

2. France.

France had been itching for payback against Germany ever since the Franco-Prussian war. Their war declaration was really unprovoked, and it was their desire for revenge and to regain Alsace-Lorraine that drove them to combat. They started it!

3. Germany.

Germany pushed Austria to be unreasonable with Serbia, so they wouldn't look weak. They had every intention of starting a war so they could flex their military might. They had been preparing for years, with the build up of their Navy and the Von Schleiffen plan. Plus, we all know Germans are warmongers. They started it!

4. Great Britain.

The Limeys were also eager for a war, if just to put Germany in her proper place. Germany's naval build-up had rankled the Brits greatly, and they were also in a snit over Germany's aggressive stance with France in Morocco. The Brits only declared war so they could get in a tumble with the Germans and cut them down to size. They started it!

5. Russia.

Russia was stinging from losses again Japan in 1905 and in the Crimean war as well. She was desperate to demonstrate she was still a first-rate military power, and to also stem the rampant discontent among the people against the monarchy. What's more, she felt Austria greatly threatened her interests in controlling the Balkans, and wanted a chance to smack them around a bit. Russia egged on Serbia and instigated the war through their desire for power. They started it!

6. Serbia.

Serbian radicals murdered the Archduke, and the Serbian government was intentionally evasive in its feet-dragging with Austria. They fostered the climate of war, and they were certain Russia would beat Austria quickly and then Serbia could continue to flex its muscles in the Balkans. They started it!

7. The United States

Hey, they can always get blamed for something, right? Perhaps increased U.S. military might and imperialism was threatening to the European powers, driving their ambitions abroad and increasing tensions on the continent to unbearable levels. It's a stretch. They started it!

8. Others.

Canada? Mexico? Finland? Banana Republic? You tell me who started it!

So, let the blaming begin!

	12-09-2002 23:22									#2
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THe Germans may have been enablers of the war, but it was the hawks in Vienna, like Chief of Staff Conrad, who wanted war with Serbia to teach those South Slavs a lesson.

	12-09-2002 23:23									#3
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When in trouble, blame France.

	12-09-2002 23:24									#4
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I blame the nationalism and imperialism (obviously this only applies to the imperial powers) on the part of the major powers.

Even if the Hapsburgs weren't dicking around in the Balkans, the war would've erupted eventually over an equally minor issue.

	12-09-2002 23:34									#5
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Ramo, no fair. We're talking MOST culpable. So go on and pick someone. BLAME, dammit!

	12-09-2002 23:35									#6
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I think it pretty much had to be the Finns. Those shifty bastards have their dirty hands on everything. Stuff it, Nokia.



Now that's flaming and blaming!

	12-09-2002 23:37									#7
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Ok, then the Ruskies and Krauts get the blame for turning a regional war into a world war.

	12-09-2002 23:37									#8
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Germany's invasion of Belgium dragged UK into the war.

	13-09-2002 00:04									#9
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One account I read noted that Archduke Francis Ferdinand had argued for moderation in previous crises (and made himself unpopular). If he had been around to argue against war things might have gone differently.

There was a conspiracy theory at the time that Vienna had him murdered.

	13-09-2002 00:20									#10
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IIRC wasn't Ferdinand persona non grata at the Austrian Imperial court because he married a commoner?

	13-09-2002 00:31									#11
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It is all Bossman's fault.

	13-09-2002 00:33									#12
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The Austrians started the war and the Germans made it a world war

I blame both, they are the same anyway

BTW, I like the way you wrote your intro Boris, very pasionate

	13-09-2002 01:40									#13
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Also IIRC, Russia was the first major power that mobilized against another major power...

	13-09-2002 01:41									#14
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I want more bickering, though.

I vote for Great Britain. Imperialist limeys were ultimately to blame for everything. Isn't that right, Irish posters? Right. Blame them!!!

	13-09-2002 01:43									#15
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What a silly question/poll! Of *course* it was America's fault!

-=Vel=-

	13-09-2002 01:45									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx What a silly question/poll! Of *course* it was America's fault! -=Vel=-

Damn right! We obnoxious Yanks are to blame for everything. I'm sure I can find a way we were responsible for the plague in the 14th century.

	13-09-2002 01:51									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov I want more bickering, though. I vote for Great Britain. Imperialist limeys were ultimately to blame for everything. Isn't that right, Irish posters? Right. Blame them!!!

Some Germans tried to blame the war on the British for not making it clear beforehand that Britain would get involved. The reasoning goes that if Britain had made its position clear the Germans wouldn't have gone through with their plans and peace would have been preserved. Sounds like kind of a stretch to me.

	13-09-2002 01:52									#18
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D'oh! You must have been in contact with an Illuminatus from at least the Eighth Order or higher....yes, but....that information wasn't supposed to be made public yet....:gulp!:

-=Vel=-

	13-09-2002 02:01									#19
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Why isn't this a multiple choice poll? I know at least from Germany and France that they were dying to go to war, and I suspect it for Austria, Serbia, and Russia. I think the UK at least welcomed it because it always was happy when a major war was going on on the continent.

	13-09-2002 02:21									#20
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I see the Europeans are voting on the U.S. just on principle...

	13-09-2002 02:22									#21
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Lets look at the facts

This is the is from the respected newspaper The Onion.
www.theonion.com
The headlines of thier August 5, 1914 issue

WAR DECLARED BY ALL
Austria Declares War on Serbia Declares War on Germany Declares War on France Declares War on Turkey Declares War on Russia Declares War on Bulgaria Declares War on Britain
****
Ottoman Empire Almost Declares War on Itself
****
Nations Struggle to Remember Allies

Researching through the info on the frontpage it seems the real trouble started when some Archduke of Austria-Hungry was shot. More problems appeared when a couple of drunken Americans in an Davenport, Iowa Ale House declared war on Ireland and when Corsica declared war on the Baleric Islands who then declared war on Sardinia.

After reading all this I think Cyprus is mostly to blame.

	13-09-2002 02:27									#22
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It's all Great Britain's fault. Home Rule for Ireland was due to come in in August 1914. In order to stop this from coming about Britain deliberately engineered a "war to end all wars" on the continent so they would have to shelve all acts for the duration of the war.

"It'll be over by Christmas" they assure the despondent Irish people. Instead it drags on for 4 years. Nobody can possibly repudiate this as evidence of Britain's guilt. Well, maybe they can, but it makes for an interesting conspiracy theory.

One final nail in the coffin: when parliament resumed in Britain in the summer of 1914, the major issue was the Irish question - not what was unfolding on the continent.

	13-09-2002 02:28									#23
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I took Austria, although I put Serbia a close second, for starting the whole thing.

Russia, Germany, France, and the UK also have large blame for not doing anything to stop it, and in fact encouraging everything along.

	13-09-2002 02:45									#24
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For me it's a toss-up between Germany and Austria, but I have to give Austria the edge since in the end it's their own decision (to invade Serbia.)

	13-09-2002 02:49									#25
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quote: Originally posted by our_man It's all Great Britain's fault. Home Rule for Ireland was due to come in in August 1914. In order to stop this from coming about Britain deliberately engineered a "war to end all wars" on the continent so they would have to shelve all acts for the duration of the war. "It'll be over by Christmas" they assure the despondent Irish people. Instead it drags on for 4 years. Nobody can possibly repudiate this as evidence of Britain's guilt. Well, maybe they can, but it makes for an interesting conspiracy theory. One final nail in the coffin: when parliament resumed in Britain in the summer of 1914, the major issue was the Irish question - not what was unfolding on the continent.

You know why God created Whiskey, don'tcha?


To keep the Irish from conquering the world. :: d&r ::

	13-09-2002 02:53									#26
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quote: For me it's a toss-up between Germany and Austria, but I have to give Austria the edge since in the end it's their own decision

After all, IIRC, Ferdinand was the heir to the throne. If a candidate for US presidentship was shot by some foreign nationalist, I think I can guess what happens ...

	13-09-2002 02:55									#27
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It mostly depends on what party the candidate was, and what party the sitting President was

	13-09-2002 02:56									#28
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The Serbian government was full of supporters of the Black Hand, including the head of it's military intelligence that provided travel documents to the terrorists.

It was a terrorist sponsoring nation, and while Austria's ultimatum was quite severe, it was intended to put the Serbs in their proper place.

The four coutries I'd say are responsible were Serbia, Austria-Hungary, Germany, and Russia, in a dead heat. Any of them had great potential to prevent the war, more so than France, Britain and the US.

Funny, we were going over this same issue in my history of WWI class today.

	13-09-2002 04:14									#29
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Nobody cared about the Archduke. He was one of those guys who would show up to a function and people would wonder what he would be doing there. The Emperor didn't even attend the funeral, IIRC.

A lot of blame can be laid on the top civil servants. Count Von Berchtold, the Foreign Minister of Austria, was a virulent racist and despite Slavs, which made Austria's stomping over Serbia far more likely. His excessive demands sent in short notice to the Serbs in a language that they had few translators for (French or Latin, IIRC) made any sort of dipomacy more moot.

Theobald von Bethmann-Hollweg, German Chancellor, was weak and ineffectual. He was assailed by both the left and the right. His lack of authority didn't prevent Germany from issuing the "Blood Oath" or "Blank Check", a muddled piece of correspondence that was in support of Austria, but failed to define what sort of support they would provide. The Kaiser and German Gov't thought it meant verbal support. The Austrians thought that the Germans would give them full military support. Holleweg also lacked the authority to stop the Schlieffen plan.

While I'm on the subject, the Kaiser didn't help any. Wilhelm was, by all accounts, not all that bright, weak in resolve, and (this is for Boris Gudonov) rumored to be quite gay. He had eratic mood swings and failed to take diplomacy seriously. When he issued the "Blood Oath/Blank Check", he decided to go on vacation to the Baltic with the boys, leaving the rest of the German Government to figure out what in the hell he meant. In addition, instead of halting the deployment of troops under the Schlieffen Plan, he let Chief of Staff Von Moltke bully him into letting it continue. The full mobilization startled the Russians and caused them to mobilize their troops. Also, letting the incompetent Moltke lead the troops lead to the stalling of the German advance on Paris, setting the stage for brutal Trench Warfare. In addition, Wilhelm's oblivousness to the situation is seen in the infamous "Willy-Nikki" telegrams to Nicholas II of Russia where he spends most of every telegram on social issues and casually mentions the political sitation in Eastern Europe in the last sentence. He was completely out of the loop.

I'm not quite as well versed in the British/French actions of WWI, but from everything I've read, I blame Germany and Germany Jr.

	13-09-2002 04:22									#30
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quote: It mostly depends on what party the candidate was, and what party the sitting President was

And I thought the US presidents had more loyalty to their country...

quote: The four coutries I'd say are responsible were Serbia, Austria-Hungary, Germany, and Russia, in a dead heat. Any of them had great potential to prevent the war, more so than France, Britain and the US.

Russia (probably) still could have avoided the war. Germany was bound by treaty to Austria-Hungary, and England and France to Russia. So Germany's declaration of war to (I think it was thus) Russia, England and France just was a matter of logic and being faithful to the alliance. Germany had to declare war on France to gain a few days. And if you look at the geographical situation, the violation of Belgium's neutrality was also more than natural (after all, Belgium was Germany until 1792 or so ... ).
In my earlier post, I more stressed the readiness to go to war, simply because I think it gives the more realistic picture.
About the US: Even if they had not the power to make the war not happen, it was their free decision to enter the war (first economically, and then militaric).