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notyoueither
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of naught
Aug 2001
time: 22:22
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Apologies to all, but I feel this is necessary.
Before the ink is dry on the ballots of the new administration, some parties have launched some interesting polls on the use for our Great Leader. I do not contest that things have been debated, however...
The first poll regarding 'What do we do with our great leader', found here:
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=61922
asked a question with 4 options. Two of the options were Army and Great Wonder. GW has garnered 46% as of right now. Army, 38%. Alright, close. So then...
A second poll is launched asking 'What do we do with our great leader(Runoff)', found here:
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=61966
asks for a decision between Army and a specific wonder, that being Sun Tsu's. Sun Tsu's is currently polling 75%. So then...
In this thread:
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=62131
discussion proceeds as if a binding decision has been made to build Sun Tsu's.
I cry foul.
First off, the build ques are the domain of the City Planner, not the military. What is a deputy SMC and soon to be SMC doing polling this question? Not that he cannot, any of us can, but shouldn't we allow the City Planner a voice in all this? Did he agree with the polls begun by the SMC?
Second and most importantly, the run off between the options of Army and Sun Tzu's is a farce. No other wonder options are presented and none discussed in any detail (practically).
The reason for this thread? Good you asked. Should I, or some other citizen challenge those polls by petitioning the court to declare one or both of them as invalid? I thought about just doing it myself. I am a citizen. I too can PM a justice with a complaint. However, I felt it better to put the issue out there for discussion and to see if any others are disturbed by the progress of the GL debate.
Questions? Comments? Rotten vegetable matter?
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nz_upy
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Some backwater sheepstation in the wop wops
Sep 2002
time: 05:22
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In response to other options to Sun Tzu's or an Army being discussed. They have. To choose another option means holding on to the GL until another wonder becomes available to us and this means that we give up the chance that our elite units in the field have to produce another GL however slim that maybe.
The general consensus among the citizenry is that we shouldn't wait but use the GL now in the hope of another one in the near future.
Last edited by nz_upy on 17-09-2002 at 11:55
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Aggie
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Of GOW's half of BOB
Jun 2002
time: 23:22
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NYE, the reason for the poll was this, "I wanted to see what the people thought, since we only had three days the quicker it got started, the better. I did asked the peole in the chat about what options to put in. Since I saw no other polls I started this one, in my eyes since I didn't put official on it I didn't think it was official, just advisory. I then started the second poll because I saw quickly that several of the options were favored and it would be best to get the 2 leading options. The reason I put Sun Tsu there was this, we only had the tech for it not any other and to the best of my knowledge the only way to get theology was through peace with persia( a decision already discarded) or through buying it(something that didn't seem likely). So to be as specific as possible I put those two options in only. I wanted to see what the people wanted. Looking back I could have put in Sistine chapel, along with a (we buy theology) option. I made a mistake when I didn't say "everbody do the new poll" in the first thread. Now to a larger issue "Who does control a GL?" He is a unit, yet he can disband to build things in cities or he can form an army. I see the cp and smc are the main ministers involved, but I think i the end the people MUST vote on such a thing, since the COL is silent on this and since it is of such large importance. In my opinion the same is true for trading cities away. I take some offense when you say the runoff was a farce, it wasn't. To the best of my understanding those seemed to be the options available and buying theology to get the sistine chapel did not seem an option. Personally I like all options since an army would have guarentee one less defender in every city(after attack) and of course the adbantages of the other wonders is clear, we can barracks or more 6 happy people with cathedral, so our cites could grow and grow(combined with pyranmids this is double deadly). In short the purpose of the poll was to understand the will of the people, however for the record such a poll isn't necessary. However in my opinion it would have been unethical to make this decision without consulting the people, which has been done. I am thus to some degree proud of what was done here.
Aggie
Last edited by Aggie on 17-09-2002 at 20:39
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GePap
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of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:22
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If we wait on Sun Tzu's we might not get it at all, since all civs with feudalism have been building it since they got that tech. I agree with GenghisFarb, that holding the GL is not a wise move, since more caould be generated. More importantly, I don't know if we will get more GL's, I don't even really care: Another civ getting Sun Tzu's is a great danger, it makes them much more powerful militarilly, and since it never expires, this means tha civs becomes a military danger for ever. As GenghisFab also added, Sun Tzu greatly increases possible GL creation, perhaps helping us garner various other Great wonders which come down the road.
As for who's authority it is, its never been spelled out in the CoL, so our SMC took initiative. As for it having to be the City Planner: since rushing something takes only 1 turn, it is hardly really a nuissance for this office, plus, since the GL event can't be planned for, it seems hard for it to be fit into City planner.
I hae no problem with a new poll, a final poll, on what to do with the GL once OPD takes over officially for the next turns, but it need to be done soon, and I say, that those that want to wait to get Theology have better come up with a good plan to do it swiftly, as in the next turns to be played, since many may not feel like holding the GL is a great idea and this most certainly will weakn any such plan, if it calls for possibly getting theology in x- amount of time. remember, if any civ soon gets Sun Tzu's, the loosers will probably shift for the Chapel, and we might end up with neither if we hesitate.
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Aggie
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Of GOW's half of BOB
Jun 2002
time: 23:22
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When to build must be given in the poll, if the wait option doesn't win then the wonder must be built as soon as possible, the smc,cp,pw,fam have to follow the poll. There can't be a "well we need to wait a few turns" ability for cp. Also i did check, the best deal on theology is this 181g and 25gpt. If you think we should get the sistine by all means pm togas and demand we buy theology, if it is obvious that most people want that, then we can do it this turnchat,otherwise it will be Sun Tsu.
Aggie
Last edited by Aggie on 17-09-2002 at 22:13
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jdjdjd
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of España
May 2002
time: 00:22
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I have some problems, not with Aggie, but with this thread. For such a thread to be started by a member of the Court could be deemed prejudicial since members of the Court possibly are looked on as experts in legal matters, and thus that by the very nature of nye's objection, Aggie's poll is unconstitutional. So I will counteract that prejudice with some of my own.....
Aggie concede's the poll is unofficial, and based on a prior court decision, Trevman v. UberrKruX, such action as taken by Aggie, admitting his poll is unofficial, is sufficient to make a poll unofficial.
I think the CoL does need clarification as to this, something for the Constitutional Convention. But for now based on the CoL IMHO, Aggie is allowed to make a poll, the poll is unofficial, and the Ministers do not need to rely on it or anything to decide what happens to a GL. As to who makes the decision, the SMC, City Planner and the President should be involved, and an official poll of the people would be appropriate. OPD should step up as soon as he is President and make this his first official act.
As for my opinion on what to do, I agree on Sun Tsu (and yes I am a builder when I play), my main thought is not to waste potential future GLs from being created because a current GL sitting around collecting dust. There is siginificant benefit to having the barracks for free. The Sistine Chapel is awesome, but to buy it now will be costly to purchase, or to take peace with Persia too early.
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Aggie
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Of GOW's half of BOB
Jun 2002
time: 23:22
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quote:
Originally posted by notyoueither
I say this because I can see that I am not alone in my opinion. Ministers should be careful in the excercise of their authority. We have never had one impeached. It would be a shame if the new govt got embroiled in a lengthy and unpleasant case before the court before the term began.
I am very serious. You seem to be attempting to rush a very important decision. I would also point out that your second poll cannot be regarded in any way as official, since I just noticed that it is closed after only two days. The result therefore is not binding on the president or any other official. |
NYE I respect you greatly, however this threat was inappropriate, I qoute the consitution and specificly the amendment on impeachment
"a. An official can be impeached only if they have violated the Code of Laws in place at the time of the violation."
I assume I am the person you are referring to in the impeachment threat, I have not violated any laws, so an impeachment is not called for, yes the poll could be declared invalid, but since the poll WASN'T necessary I fail to see how setting up an optional invalid poll consitutes violating the COL.
You seem to feel strongly about this so I suggest if you desire to persue this issue you do the following, this is a more reasonable course of action.(Though I oppose this too, but I can see how you might want this.)
"d. Injunctions:
The Court cannot halt the game to make a decision without a 2/3 vote amongst the people. In case of an emergency due to timing of a turnchat and poll of the populace, the Court may halt the game for 72 hours, but only by unanimous vote of the Court and only if a specific case has been presented to them that must be decided prior to the turnchat. In the emergency case, the Court would immediately have to present a 72 hour poll to the people for their approval of the Injunction. If not approved by the time of the poll's closure, the game immediately resumes where it was before. "
I hope if you feel there is a legal question, that you persue this course. I don't see how there is any case here, since there are no rules for using a great leader, but if you want to; go for it(the courts been bored anyway), but I would much rather MWIA had his final turnchat in peace. The best idea would be to incorporate what I and Ghengis have written above, into the new laws your commitee will work on. I do understand that intelligent people can disagree and do not take personal offense.
Still Respecfully
Aggie
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Aro
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Ipanema
Jul 2002
time: 02:22
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quote:
Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx
* UnOrthOdOx looks at his watch...
I have a few hours of authority left, I will go and make an OFFICIAL poll, then. And, I will petition MrWIA NOT to use the GL in the next five turns. The only thing that will lose us is the remote possibility of another GL. |
But, UnOrthOdOx, we don't know in what stage of the construction are the other civ's! We are risking to loose the Sun Tzu, and the remote possibility of another GL stills a possibility. In this case, better cancel the chat, IMHO.
In fact, I'm confused. Togas don't see anything wrong or illegal, and it's almost a consensus that we can't wait with a GL in hour hands.
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17-09-2002 10:07
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