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berXpert
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Home :)
Jan 2001
time: 23:13
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I read every one of you guys, but to me it's both: a trick and a cheat.
I was using this trick since I discovered after a long time of single playing months ago (years?!). I said is a trick if you play with out cheating at the beggining of the game. When you start a new game you have only 1 settler and NO money, so the only way you have to "rush buy-change" is hard working or get lucky and find some gold inside a ruin (wich never is greater to 500) or a friendly civ send you a money gift.
In the early stage of the game you have 15 or 25 gold to break into maintenance, military and science, so the savings are 5 or less each turn then you need to wait 200 turns to get 1000 for a "rb-c", obviously when you civ grow you have more money but never before 40 turn (year 2000 bC).
This is what I do when I find gold (let it 500) in a ruin and I wanted to build a caravan (17 turns 4500 for rush buy): I put a temple (5 turns 560) and rush buy it! then quit and let the caravan end for 12 turns. In this way I get an accelerated building but let my money go to 0 again. The same to get a military unit but you never have enough money to "r b-c" in each city every turn just 1 city 1 stuff when an extraordinary money event happen.
By the middle game you have more money but also have more power to build stuff so you don't care about "r b-c" a tank when you need 2 turns to comple it, it's more waste of time clicking here and there, and by that time there are not more "cheaper" buildings to get this trick to work!
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But if we cheat since the begining, like all accelerated starts for PBEM or Internet games, when you have more settlers and A LOT OF MONEY, oviously the trick is converted into cheat until all that money is gone, after that it become a trick again.
Let me put an example with the Keygen Mod: 3 settlers 10,000 gold, 3 caravans, the settlers founded before turn 5 gives extra settler and grow to city 3 and 2. What we have here is a game like one you must have at turn 50 or 60 in a normal game but with much money.
You can use that 10,000 to rush buy a wonder, some buildings or units, or use the trick to get more units, but all that money must be spend, if not wich is the meaning to have that amount of gold? Personally I used it!
I like to play more over science than war, so I rush buy buildings to get more money or science like marketplaces, banks, academies. Some times I help my cities to build settlers but not buying graners ('coz you are wasting one production turn in that city) but temples and "r b-c" so the settler is finished in the next 3 or 4 turns (not the 9 or 11)
And by the turn 20 I have set all my money gone to 0, now all the money I can get will be used (maybe) to the "r b-c" trick or to rush buy more banks I don't know but it's a trick again and the cheat is over. Maybe those 20 turns where cheated but the turn 0 also was cheat by using the Mod.
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Resume:
If you said this is a cheat then also is a cheat in PBEM remain outside a ruin that get barbarians and replay the turn, or don't enter into the ruins that gives you a military unit until you get more advances that will give you a better unit, i.e. if I enter now I get a Samurai, if wait for 5 advances give me a Cavalery, other 5 maybe a Fascist and other 10 a marine, etc.
What I said is if you don't like this trick - cheat then STOP using accelerated starts and when playing by Internet don't give to your selfs money, only settlers that's all. If any one have lucky and find some gold and use this trick-cheat I don't care 'coz is the same that when you find an advance in a ruin (like to rush buy an advance from 5 to 9 turns) or a unit (imagine a cavalery from 17 turns).
I'll continue using this guys, sorry, but to me is not a cheat. If any one want me out of their games tell me now, I don't care to quit 'coz I can continue playing alone or with other players that know this trick and use it to get a better game. But all of you are still using tricks right now in the middle of your strategies, think about it 
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BTW In CTP 2 this trick is fixed if you rush buy you can't change it or cancel it. In Civ II advanced levels there are a pennaltie when swithching between units and buildings.
[This message has been edited by berXpert (edited May 15, 2001).]
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Fuzzball
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of bellybutton fluff
Apr 2001
time: 15:13
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If you remain in Theocracy, regardless of the era, the ol' rush buy switcheroo is still effective. The reason being, that in Theo, the building cost is minimal in comparison to unit cost. Also, using this rush buy switcheroo CAN seriously disadvantage some in competitive games.
For example: Someone playing the modlite scenario with the 10k start, lucky enough to start with Engineering Tech....Engineering enables colliseums, which take almost as long to build as some Wonders in the Ancient Age. But a colliseum costs about $2000, as opposed to wonders which cost about $40000 in the Ancient Age.....So if someone used the ol' switcheroo with a colliseum and an an Ancient Wonder, it would be quite effective. This could be accomplished in later ages also with many units/buildings depending on the government.
The best way to limit this, is as Berxpert alreay mentioned, to limit the starting amount of gold. This trick is the reason for alot of resynchronizing and faulty connections in multiplayer online games. As the data is changing so fast that the host computer is constantly sending updated information to the players games. The trick itself doesn't worry me. I've learnt to deal with the disadvantage it can put you in most of the time. I find the resynchronizing and connection problems created in multiplayer games the most frustrating part. Which is why I prefer to limit the gold in all my games.
I do like Keygen's modlite and accelerated start alot though for Pbem games. So perhaps if building and unit costs were made equal, and the cost of wonders made impossible, this trick could be rendered useless.
[This message has been edited by Fuzzball (edited May 15, 2001).]
[This message has been edited by Fuzzball (edited May 15, 2001).]
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Immortal Wombat
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in perpetuity
Dec 2000
time: 05:13
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I had known about this for a long time, but rarely used it, not because I considered it cheating, but because I rarely rush buy stuff. It takes just as long to build a granary as a settler, so why not just let thm build normally? (Of course, I don't play PBEM, where I expect rush-buying is much more important)
However, I would just say that it can be hard to enforce this rule. What if someone who hasn't read this thread and is unaware of the cheat starts building a granary, goes to rush-buy, in order to speed his city development, then finds an ideal city site, with the enemy settler only 2 squares away? He would change the queue to settler and, according to these rules, will have cheated. I know that is unlikely, but it is one possible case.
Secondly, I don't know if you are aware (surely you must be?), but when you conquer an enemy city, if you immediatly place your own item into the build queue, then you keep the existing production there. This is very useful, for instance, you send in a troop of paratroopers to the enemy capital, that is building a wonder, capture it, then change production to a Leviathan (or tank, or whatever). If you are lucky, then the production will be sufficiently high to get you the Leviathan in just one or two turns, meaning that you instantly have some defence, and can resume the offensive. It is so unrealistic that a half-built Star Ladder can be transformed into a Leviathan in one turn, that surely it too is chetaing.
I do not regard the build-queue swap as cheating, (it was also possible in Civ2 btw, and over in that part of the site, I think it is named as a rather useful strategy...) and though I rarely use it, I have no qualms about doing so.
My 2 cents...
Ben
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blackice
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Canada where else...
Sep 2000
time: 00:13
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quote:
Came on laddies, you are going to broke your nails for this trick in the game???
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Let's go play and have fun
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And for you Black I'm quit now in ALL the games I'm involved if this make you happy. Anyway you are out the ratings so how could affect you my higer rate?
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No that's not what I am saying, maybe you don't understand the magnatude of this "Trick" I am building a bank you have built a bank, I am still building a bank you have build and aquaduct and a bank. Explain to me how by exploiting this bug and doing that it is fair or even  Then explain to me how moving up the ratings exploiting this bug is fair It clearly is not fair so laddies we are not (Well some of us  ) fair players wanting an even playing field to have fun playing a game we are, seems we have that in common. Sorry for your misconception.
Now don't go trying to make me happy I have been told that is hard to do  No one wants anyone to quit  what I was saying is if a rule is passed not to use the exploit in order to play you would have to agree, what is the point in having a rule you don't agree to As far as me being in the ratings it does not effect my desire to have a balanced, fair, competative Pbem game none what so ever, also being rated or not should in no way have the ability to nulify one's say in the PBEM community, think of it as an unbias opinion As for lets go and play and have fun, let's do it.
I would have to say Rick banning or a penalty in the future should not be ruled out. But for now this is new so if we all just agree as I said as "good sports" not to use or to use the exploit should be enough for now.
Why don't we start a thread and put it to a vote, let's face it wouldn't it be a shame to stop all play until we figure out a mod Let's just decide what to do now and go by the honor system until it is resolved.
Now really You have to love this game
IMO.
[This message has been edited by blackice (edited May 15, 2001).]
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faded glory
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This trash talking 2 bit dope dealer is about to learn respect for the law
Jan 2001
time: 05:13
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Mark, the very title of that news story is yellow journalism  .....The future of CTP is not threatened.
Blackice, happiness is a insignificant factor! Control it abstractly with the Wage bar and Ration's bar,Always have production on 12 hours . Build Granarys, Aqueducts, mills, factorys, and anything else that improves production. Then when you have a city with a monopoly in it and that makes alot of money. Build a Marketplace,Bank, and airport. See, I set it up so where I have "Producing towns" "Cash towns" and little town's all over that do both. But you will never find a hospital,theatre, or anything else that ups city happiness in my Civ. Mainly because Maintence cost Drain's important money that normally goes to Science.
To everyone else, most of us are noble PBEM players. We can all promise not to use this "Dasterdly Bug". I believe most of us will keep that promise.
[This message has been edited by Saddam (edited May 15, 2001).]
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berXpert
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Home :)
Jan 2001
time: 23:13
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quote:
No that's not what I am saying, maybe you don't understand the magnatude of this "Trick" I am building a bank you have built a bank, I am still building a bank you have build and aquaduct and a bank. Explain to me how by exploiting this bug and doing that it is fair or even. Then explain to me how moving up the ratings exploiting this bug is fair. It clearly is not fair so laddies we are not (Well some of us ) fair players wanting an even playing field to have fun playing a game we are, seems we have that in common. Sorry for your misconception.
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I'm sorry if went wrong but remember that the cheat is only between buildings to units.
So if you are building a Bank (20 turns) and I build a bank (rush buy 2200)
Next turn, you are still building a bank (19 turns) and I build an acueduct (rush buy 1800)
Now you still have your 10,000 plus the savings of 2 turns let it to 100 = 10,100 and I have 6,000 + 100 of savings = 6,100. You have enough money to start a wonder after the finish of your bank, and if other player want to win you then (even you don't want to do it) you going to rush buy it.
And remeber, you can't rush buy for ever, only if you have money, so continuing with your example. Your bank (18 turns) and I buid a factory (4000 gold). Next your bank (17 turns) and I build a marketplace (1800), next turn I can't buy anything, but you can complete your bank for only 1800 not the 2200 that was for me. So you must have a good strategy to rush buy 'cos in the way of the example I only get 3 stuff and you 1, in the powergraph for that 9 turns I'll get higer than you, but for the next turns I won't be able to buy anything, and maybe you finish your acueduct by then and still having 10,000 or more for an eventuality (like rush buy armies) and I won't, and your pg will be higher than mine I think.
I don't say that rush buy is fair or even for the rates but if Keygen put 10,000 gold in his mod, so it should be used in some form and the only one I know is rush buy or give it as a gif to some one else.
So I suggest to stop this cheat is not allow put money at the accelerated starts and that's all, no wonders no pikemen for the cost of a temple
And as Blackice let me continue playing I won't use the cheat again. In fact I have no more money now
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Fuzzball
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of bellybutton fluff
Apr 2001
time: 15:13
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quote:
Originally posted by jpww on 05-15-2001 07:28 PM
Correct me If I'm wrong, but the action you take in order to expose a cheater, could be presumed cheating itself. For instance, I would consider the act of opening your opponent's turns downright cheating. In my opinion, a committee of some sort has to be appointed to handle cases of this nature.
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Not that I would approve of such...but...well.. isn't it legal to break the law in order to prove a crime in the U.S.? We got any yankee moderators out there? hehehe
Also, speakin' for myself here...I'm more than willin' to spit in my hand and slap palms in a cyber fashion with anyone I play, in agreement not to make use of this silly little bug again. I will admit I have used it before at need, and probably will again in multiplayer online games. But I want to play pbem too you know, and do it on an even keel with the dudes I'm playin'. I like the people and discussions on the forums and in the pbem games. Makes me feel kinda fuzzy..
[This message has been edited by Fuzzball (edited May 15, 2001).]
[This message has been edited by Fuzzball (edited May 15, 2001).]
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quinns
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Thanks bj, but that article misses the main reason for breaking a cheat like this to the public, and that is, to level the playing field . This bug was already in widespread use in the internet multiplayer CTP arena, by many players. But many players were not aware of it. Publicizing the bug helps to make all people aware that this thing exists. In this way, actions can be taken to level the game out and make it truly "competitive" again -- and not this "I know a secret" business that exists with this bug kept in the dark.
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Boney
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Thailand
Jan 2001
time: 05:13
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I agree that this is a cheat. The non-usage of such cheats has to be agreed upon before playing. I have found that the majority of multiplayers are quite honourable, and would abide by pre-agreed rules. Banning those who cheat would probably be effective in the long term, but who would like to accuse fellow players of cheating, and also have the proof. I am confident that vast majority of players would never consider using this cheat, especially after seeing the reaction to this post.
As to the Yankee thing generalizations are pretty normal, for most Northerners in England anyone South of Birmingham is a Cockney. Just as for most Asians anyone from the UK is English, this really pisses off many Scots.
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blackice
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Canada where else...
Sep 2000
time: 00:13
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Yes Quinns I totally agree
While that was a great post BJ, really. They made very strong points some very valid points but I have to agree with Quinns on this one. The hush, hush is simply done so that a few players can have an edge but truely they have NO bragging rights, none what so ever. This not only cheats themself of a truely great gaming experience but cheats others of the same. It also I believe stunts the growth of League members.
By posting the exploit and leveling the playing field you can once again somewhat enjoy an even playing field and test your skills against other players. As Quinns points out it also brings the gaming community together to come up with ways of countering the exploit. And the fact that people are aware of it allows the question to be asked "Are we playing with the exploit or not". If they are unaware of it send them here open and up front. Fuzzy and few have pointed out what to look for in a game this is being used in great, more awareness all of this helps. Save games more often, share saved game files on and on there are ways around this. The most important is it is in the open now.
I say post'em if you got them if you are honest, it also may be one of reasons why CTP is the only game that no one has posted strategies for in the strategy section lol. Really if one was honest submit it as a strategy if that is what you believe it to be. I have no problem telling people how I do things in the game, the more they learn the more I learn. This results in more intense games, better competion and one heck of a good time After all is that not why we play games for the fun and mental challenge, I do.
Hopefully it will get fixed and once again we can play it in it's pure form and I don't have to say hummmm anymore
Let's face it, this is one of the best games ever made period.
IMO
You have to love this game
[This message has been edited by blackice (edited May 16, 2001).]
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16-05-2001 09:00
There was one about rush buying large fisheries anyone know about it? 
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