15-05-2001 08:33									#1
	Trick or Cheat? Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I have debated writing about this since I found out about it from the internet players about a month ago.

There is a bug in CTP, that some of you may already know about, that gives someone "in the know" a substantial advantage in Call to Power. It is the "Rush-Buy/Remove From Queue Trick" that lets you rush buy units for one-third their cost.

For example (at Deity level), you can buy a Settler (normal rush buy cost = 3240) for the price of a Granary (rush buy cost = 1080). And you can buy a Tank (normal rush buy cost 12000) for the price of a Factory (rush buy cost = 4000). As well as many, many other examples.

Here's how you do it: (Using the Settler for Granary example)

1. From your Build Queue, add a Granary.
2. Add a Settler below the Granary in your Build Queue.
3. Go to your Build screen and "Rush Ruy" the Granary. (Notice the drop of 1080 gold from your gold reserve.)
4. Go back to your Build Queue and REMOVE THE GRANARY FROM THE QUEUE.
5. Hit End.
6. Notice that you have built a Settler for 1080 gold. Normally this Settler would have cost you 3240 if you were to rush buy it normally.

(You can use this "trick" over and over without limit.)

Personally, I have not used this trick (or cheat) in any games I am playing. No really, I haven't! (My rating reflects that I'm not lying .) It is easily done, though. Many of the internet players feel that this is "part of the game" and is not cheating. My opinion is that it is cheating if you don't let everyone in the game know how to take advantage of this obvious bug. And what a pain in the neck to implement. Everytime you build anything you have to run through the above mess in order to maximize your rush buy capability.

I would recommend labelling this as a "cheat" in PBEM, and ask all players not to use it. (It is so easy to cheat in other ways in PBEM, this shouldn't be that different to include this in the list of "don'ts" in PBEM.)

Awaiting all your opinions and comments. I only thought it fair to all the players here to mention this "trick" because some players may be already using it in some of your games. It would be good to get a concensus from the players on how to "treat" this -- Trick or Cheat!

[This message has been edited by quinns (edited May 14, 2001).]

	15-05-2001 09:14									#2
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This is certainly cheating.

It was something like this, that made me stop playing AOE online on the Zone 2 years ago.

	15-05-2001 09:16									#3
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quinns, why now, did you open pandora's box? This puts into question, the future of PBEM.


It is easy to spot someone using this cheat/bug. If they are 3X stronger then everybody else on the PG. Everybody on LAN uses it, but I call them on it. Because you sort of wonder why people never get granary's built...late in the game (but have facctorys etc)


Birdman, there is a good solution to this. If you suspect someone, Spy in turns on people who are unvelievably strong on the PG.Then notify all player's to do the same, then eject that person. And see if there is a Granary rush-buying then switching to settler.

[This message has been edited by Saddam (edited May 15, 2001).]

	15-05-2001 10:00									#4
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It's cheating. Excuse my while I open my veins....

...to write in blood that I will never use it.

	15-05-2001 10:32									#5
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People who use it have funny sized city's late in the game. Like there capitol is size 3 or 4 when there are tanks. That is because they Rush buy granary/settler trick.


I used to use it on LAN, but I rarely even play LAN now.Now that I am around more noble players I so far have not used it in PBEM's !

[This message has been edited by Saddam (edited May 15, 2001).]

	15-05-2001 13:51									#6
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Hm, another task for moderators...

This is definitely cheating!

Thanks Quinns for bringing this up! I would suggest if anyone knows any other bug that might be considered a cheat to post it here.
Accually I will make a list of what is cheating in PBEM in the weekend...

	15-05-2001 14:27									#7
	Suffering from ads?

This is definitely cheating. I will not use this kind of "tricks".

Good initiative Keygen. I think we do need a list of things that people are not supposed to do when playing PBEM. We could add (or refer to) the list when we start a new PBEM game. Perhaps we should also ask Mark to make the list a thread that remains on top. That way Newbies know what rules we are using here.

	15-05-2001 14:45									#8
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I think that it is going to be impossible to stop people from doing this- the idea of spying in turns will have little value, as most of this goes on prior to Nationalism being discovered....

I would suggest that the only solution, at present, is for everyone to do it? In PBEMs the moderator can see if it is happening, but on line it has to be taken on trust.... and there is precious little of that about.

You could create a Patch I am sure to leave Rush buy giving you whatever you Rush buy that turn instead of the following turn.... But the Cheats would never install it..... Unless someone can create a patch to render the cheat removed version and the pre patch version incompatable.

I am not suprised that no one has posted to say they do this... They know who they are, and am sure are in depair now people know their secret is out of the bag..

	15-05-2001 16:15									#9
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Anything that bends the rules of CtP is cheating, just because it may not have been mentioned yet doesn't mean it's not cheating...!

I personally didn't know about this particular cheat - it's pretty small fry considering anyone can manipulate the game files etc, to create all manner of cheats if they so wish!

IIRC we had this debate a while back and there is a solution which is moderating the games by having a referee.

All the referee has to do is follow the game and watch out for any 'anomalies' - the incentive for the referee is the ability to watch a game unfold and see whether the players follow the tactics he/she would use...

I would advocate this measure as it would help avoid any room for doubt.

	15-05-2001 16:48									#10
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Submitted to Apolyton news editor. Excellent work, Quinns!

------------------
Solver the "Running Beer" - http://www.aok.20m.com

	15-05-2001 18:08									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

lol I can tell when someone is using it... If your fighting with tanks and you notice the other guy has not built a granary in some of his citys, they are cheating.

	15-05-2001 18:57									#12
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Whew! I'm glad I posted this. Good posts!

We have to be careful, though, about accusing people of cheating just because they have a high power graph. This behavior could go down that slippery slope of "false accusation". I have been in several games where I was 3 or 4 times stronger than the next player, but I did not cheat. (Of course, I have been on the receiving end of this thumping as well ).

Much thanks to all of you for posting. Mobius mentions that this is a minor cheat compared to some of the other things you can do. But this is the only one, that I know of, where it really is "part of the game" and does not involve any willing manipulation of game files, (which is, obviously, blatent cheating). This anomoly appears as a "trick" in the game, hence the title of this thread.

I agree with the majority here, that this is a cheat. And thanks Keygen for taking the initiative to create a list of "CTP PBEM Misconduct".

	15-05-2001 19:07									#13
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Good Job Quinns

First off this has been sent to Kwang for a ruling, unfortunately that was some three weeks ago now or more. The assumption is they are making a mod to counter this bug. Or having a hard time discovering its use by viewing game files. This post may help to speed up the ruling process. At the very least, even the playing field. which was the idea of the post to begin with.

I have play tested this bug and see no merit in it's use, nor have I been successful in rush buying a tank with it? Or anything other than a slaver and a settler. I still don't see the point how is a 3-4 sized city is going to out produce a city 3, 4, 5 times it's size rush buy or not. I have chatted with GL players about it and most agree it is a cheat if not disclosed in a game? The idea being you agree to use it or not, as Quinns and I have been successful in doing in our games. Unfortunately some players have a difficult time with honor

Quinns brought this to my attention some time back, before then I was successful in countering this bug with a solid strategy. With the strategy I use I am ahead in the power graph until about the 80 to 100 turn mark or continue to be. So I would not put much merit in the power graph theory the key is the amount of cities. Even then using Quinns strategy as a starting point that is not conclusive evidence of the use of this bug. The power graph when using this bug looks similar to the AI power graph in the early part of the game. Or Saddams point about the graneries. Gavrushka yes that is the reason for posting this It was debated for some time. Since more and more of our PBEM'ers are playing GL online it was the right thing to do. It will level the playing field and shows PBEM'ers have more honor than some of the flakes in the GL arena. I have and will continue not to use it as the counter I have devised is a better strategy anyways

In fact in a game just recently with two players I know that use this bug I was way ahead in the power graph and remained so to the point when they conceded. This game has a civ score of 127% and going up. I have yet to even come close to that play testing the bug. One even said who needs granaries lol. Let's face it in renaissance age the main producer of science is scientist's, and goods but not goods as much as scientist's. So how can this bug win a game? You need growth and many scientists from that point on. Also there is a limit to how many cities a government can have before chaos grabs their civ. I will point out there also seems to be a growth stagnation using this bug. I found in the end that cities grow much slower if one continues to use this bug in their cities.

The reason for this is obvious fewer cities, growth and more production. While they use this as pointed out they have many cities but they are small. Slower growing not much chance to win. I would like to hear from others on this also Saddam you have used it what did you find? I think I have shown at least to Quinns "Mr.Population" that I am correct in strategy so far...

Unfortunately I have found out just recently there are more bugs in the game. I had a top player tell me just recently that they are not playing the game as they found other cheats some players are using and he has simply lost interest. This is quite unfortunate, this is a great game and these people by not posting the bug finds are ruining it for all. They will be on the top of the heap with no one to play. Stupid plain and simple.

We should pay attention to the HC threads they are constantly exposing this type of thing and naming the players. The players then suffer a fate worse than death, no one trust's them anymore no one plays them anymore and this is a good thing. It is far better than having them continue cheating and destroying the game for all the other players. And a ruling is made quite quickly on its use. We here are honorable players too let's keep it up the trust is part of the fun.

So I would urge anyone with knowledge of other bugs to post them here it can only make the game fairer and more fun for all. As soon as this player tells me the other cheats I will post them here, as yet I have heard nothing. There was one about rush buying large fisheries anyone know about it?

Until we get an official ruling I think we here all agree it is a cheat, period and we here should make an official ruling on it's use. What we need is a person that can discover its use by looking at game files. This maybe the problem the admin. is having in making a ruling on it. As far as viewing the game in progress here is something I do and would hate it to be seen as using this bug. I start a granary until 1-2 turns left then I switch it to a settler for the last two turns. I find power graph wise you have a steady one for improvements, then by switching it you get a slight penalty but that is countered by the settler when he is out and running. Thus the little dips in the power graph. So I urge caution and hope there is not a witch-hunt, we need to discover if in fact that it can be seen in the game files themselves.

Here is a good thing to do, set up an email game to yourself where you are both players. One will use the rush buy use the other to counter it. You will soon see it is not that valuable. Mind you as I have stated I have yet to be able to buy tanks with it? It is not that difficult to counter. I know for a fact Zeratul the number one GL player does not use this bug, that in itself say's something, doesn’t it?

So final word sorry about the long post let's not get discouraged any strategy, bug, cheat can be countered or ruled on. Post your known cheats here to even the playing field. And lets all email Administration for a ruling Sorry guys but that is how it works. I would like anyone who has tested this to post here also let me know if my findings are theirs too.

You have to love this game

	15-05-2001 19:11									#14
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I understand your suggestion Mobius but I do not think it is waterproof. For example, even a moderator can not "see" whether a player has attacked a city just to see if he could win and if not, replayed the turn. There are more examples like this. Therefore, I prefer to trust the people I play with. If I get the impression that they cheat, I just won't play with them anymore. If I am sure they cheat, I will post it here on Apolyton for everyone to see. If I do not notice it and they do it anyway? Well, let the guy/girl be happy then. To me these people just did not grow up yet.

Having said that, I think it would be a good thing to have all the cheats published as Keygen suggests. I mean, if this is common practice when playing over the Internet, someone who is new to PBEM may not know that such behaviour is not appreciated here. I remember that when I started here I had no idea what was and was not "accepted". Even now I am not sure about all the "unwritten rules". Clearly cheating like this rush buy trick is obvious to me but e.g. I do not know whether people exchange private mails to influence eachother or prepare an attack on a common enemy. Except for teamgames I do not do it but perhaps others do and regard it as normal (which I would not debate but would like to know so I can make use of it to).

	15-05-2001 20:03									#17
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Wow ICE, you can use this shorten production length? I just used it get a quick settler for the cost of 800$ ! But now i see the true danger in this.....Action must be taken!

Franses, About a year ago I made a 'retreat' mod. When 2/3 of the units were lost, the remaining would withdraw to the nearest city that was your's. However it was unreliable and resulted in alot of strange TGA and SLIC errors.


Quinn, I have no earthly explanation for the people who get 5 - 10 times stronger than everyone else on the PG. I thought that proclaiming others to be Cheater's would be a good 'excuse' for my poor performance ....

And yes, what to do about those false accusation
[This message has been edited by Saddam (edited May 15, 2001).]

	15-05-2001 22:08									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

So if I get this right Fuzzy you don't have to use granaries? You can switcharoo with anything? limiting gold is time effective sooner or later you have gold. I see the resync thing and would agree, but it also happens with autosave and just saving games also with bad connections.

Hummm If that is the case I may just start playing CTP2.
[This message has been edited by blackice (edited May 15, 2001).]

	15-05-2001 22:15									#19
	Full PM-box? Change here!

It'll be fun when you rush tanks for 300 gold.

------------------
Solver the "Running Beer" - http://www.aok.20m.com

	15-05-2001 22:18									#21
	Got spare money?

Trust me this bug is small in the scheme of things. There are many stupid things PBEM people do. People here complain about making negative gold toward the end the game. There is a very good reason for this. It's because people insist on building useless hospital's and theatres .


anyway, not to change the subject
[This message has been edited by Saddam (edited May 15, 2001).]

	15-05-2001 22:37									#22
	Put an end to popups!

Blackice: "I mean if you win exploting a bug which gives you an edge over other players is it a true test of skill?"

Others playeres know this trick in the games I playing, and some are using it and some not even they know how. I won't stop doing this in my current games due 2 reasons:

1. I allready spend all my money mainly buying stuff like markets, graneries and banks. So I have no more money to do it. I need to get some savings before. As I mentioned before I don't play for war so in general I don't use it for units, mainly use my money to rush buy buildings that is not part of the trick. I have only the units that the Mod gave me and an maybe 1 or 2 extra phalanx, that's all (you can confirm that cheating my turn I think)

2. As I said before the use of all those money is part of the cheat, and a lot of times is used mainly to quick building a Wonder (before turn 20) that gives you an extra advantage that is not a "true test of skill" as you said. In that games where I'm involved there are 2 or 3 wonders allready finished (not by me sure) that is not just in the same way that all of you are thinking this trick is.

Maybe if it's set as a rule to the next games, not now

I vote to let this and all the known tricks as they are: part of the each one strategy. But limit the amount of money set in the next accelerated starts to 0. So no body can rush buy a wonder or start building settlers like a cracy in the first 10 or 20 turns.


[This message has been edited by berXpert (edited May 15, 2001).]

	15-05-2001 22:57									#24
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Odd comment Saddam? In the game I have at 127% which I may add is a goal for me to achievie over 200% civ. score, 225% to be exact in the orginal Civilization game is an achievement I did without exploiting bugs in either game. I could not have done this without a hospital and my gold is over 110,000. Also we are not stupid Also to the people who complain about newbies calling them cheats when they lose so bad to them in their first game, if you use these bugs to do it you are but the zit on a flies ass. Further more why don't more people expose these bugs to the general population, hummm like to win eh? So get ready for generation 2 I have now made it a point to post this on every cheat site on the www. heh I guess some of them will now have to become better gamers eh!
To my knowledge I have yet to see this bug advertised on the www. cheat sites anyone?

Fuzzy this explains why I have lost to a few inferior players in CTP GL games, rather a piss off sure they have higher rankings but I have proven to myself they are not the best gamers. I have played these same people under assumed names and no resyncs and have kicked but in fun games.

If it can not be found in the saved game files or a fix that has to be applied can not be found, CTP2 it is. On the rare occassion in the past I have gone to a cheat site to find a cheat on a game I can not beat. That is it, the game has become a non-challenge no fun. I rarely if at all play the game anymore. This would be no different sorry but fun is the name of the game, exploiting bugs to win is well no fun. Nor is it braging rights! Yet so far I have been able to counter this bug with good strategy that I feel is better in the end run. And well I love this game heh So for those who care add this and terrain imbalances to the list of reasons for not wanting to be rated. Fun is better Terrain is huge btw last weekend I played online and stopped a player from building on anything but bad terrain we watched the end game movie in 65 turns, yup 65 turns the game was over he lost. Terrain imbalances are huge deciding factors. The true way to test ones abilities against another is on an equal surface here we have that oportunity yet we do not do it. I always wondered why? but that is a different can of worms, saved for a new topic I am working on and a new PBEM game.

And berxpert I will decide over the next few days to pull out of the games I am in with you.It depends on the ruling we get here. As you have read I thought it was for settlers and slavers only odd enough I have been unsuccessful buying other things. Also why spend all your money when I play tested it, it's more effective to rush buy for smaller gp to get more out of it?
Just because you buy buildings does not mean when you are attacked you do not use it. Further the mere fact you have used it has caused a great imbalance in those games. You can now produce more troops and have been given ranking points for being ahead in the 10th turn. That may seem harsh but add terrain differances to the factors and that could give you a huge lead. And yes Quinns you are probably right. Remember if it is voted out as far as using it you will have to honorably stop using it.


[This message has been edited by blackice (edited May 15, 2001).]

	15-05-2001 23:31									#25
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Come on, Blackice said he had a strategy to Kill all this cheating stuff, let him talk about it so the balanced will be granted again.

Let's go play and have fun

BTW this cheat is functional if you have enough money to rush buy, if all are poor, then this can't work. If you have not money and you are attacked, how you can use this to save your a$$?

And for you Blackice (or any one involved) I'm quiting now from ALL the games I'm involved if this make you happy, maybe you never have cheated, or used an extraordinary strategy to win but as other said (I don't really know if it's true) you are one of the best players on Earth so you must be rigth.

I won't post a message to quinns to "unrateme from all the games", I simply going to let me die, so all those players who were damaged for my higher rate will be beneficiated again and no more work for quinns.

If blackice let me play I going to start the Killer Game with Zobo, and I won't use this or other tricks. Anyway when Keygen post all the known cheats maybe I can post other "tricks" so you can vote for them too
[This message has been edited by berXpert (edited May 15, 2001).]

	15-05-2001 23:58									#26
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Uggh!! I didn't want this to turn into a name calling contest.

We are just trying to get a concensus on what to do with this bug, so we can continue to have "fun"! Without a decent agreement amongst us, some players will quit (as already seems is starting) and it won't be FUN anymore.

	16-05-2001 00:10									#27
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

My two cents:

Thanks to Quinns for publicizing this bug. I hope that others who know of any different bugs will expose them, too.

And yes, I think they should be banned from PBEM games.

	16-05-2001 00:43									#28
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Well, you're welcome Rick! Thanks for the post!