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Paulno1
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Auckland New Zealand
Mar 2001
time: 05:13
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Whats the problem with the trick
I use it yes and haven't played anyone that does not use it. Ever since i worked out how to use it, ive told everyone that i talk too in the lobbies pretty much. Using it to buy a tank for 4000 gold is just stupid, how much money do you have at that part of the game maybe 10000 gold thats 2 tanks that is not going to help you at all. The trick only helps at the beginning to get you your 20 or 40 cities after that i build my graneries. Only other use for the trick is to get a caravan for the price of a market. Cant use it too buy modern units is too expensive. By then you should be building a tank at least at 3 turns. So 2 tanks in 1 turn each aint going to help anyway. If you are good you should be building the tank at 1 turn anyway.
Personally i think the trick is great for the game speeds up the game considerbly. IF you are half smart you will have worked out that the biggest problem with the game is that it takes so long. Most people don't have the time. Hence the reason that not a lot of people play it, compared to other faster games.
The trick helps to reduce the land advantage. If you have a forest river you can build settlers at 8 turns, that is as fast as you grow. If the other player doesn't have a river then he is going to have a lot of trouble beating you. With the trick he is going to be able to get a settler a lot faster then otherwise, which helps to reduce the advantage of the river.
With a city on a forest then it only speeds it up by about 2 or 3 turns.
BY THE WAY ZERATUL DOES USE THE TRICK. AT LEAST IN ALL THE GAMES HES PLAYED AGAINST ME. It is very easy too tell if the trick is being used. No cities get above 1 in the beginning. Cause you use the trick so that you get a settler every time you are about to go up to 2. The trick only helps at the start i cant over emphasize that enough. You have to build graneries after you got all your settlers otherwise your just stupid. You will not grow fast enough.
It is only a cheat if you used it and didnt tell your opponent about it.
i tell everyone about it. I dont generally play newbies anyway. If you dont like me using the trick thats fine dont play me. The trick show up obviously on the graph at the start. Graph goes up and down very obviously.
PS i love the game lol
Paul soon to be number 1 player in world again lol number 2 is just wrong lol Game league. Got to number 1 actually before i used the trick too. I am the one who told most poeple about the trick.
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Gavrushka
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Darlington,Co. Durham,UK
Apr 2001
time: 05:13
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I don't think Saddam, you should be so harsh against Paul - If I understand right from a conversation with him last night, anyone he plays against is aware of the cheat. It is up to his past competitors to say otherwise - Understand that certain people have been using this for a long time, and have gone very high up the Game Ladder as a result.
I now feel an extreme reluctance to play against new people, there is a culture of mistrust that is springing up in the game, and that is a shame... All I can say is this -
Paul has come forward and stated has used what we know as a cheat, it is up to any individual wanting to play him as to how they feel about that - But bare in mind he volunteered this information, and I like to think that as a result he is basically honest - Zeratul must speak for himself, as must all other players.
I think a new Post should be started, as mentioned by someone else - Anyone agreeing not to switch production under a Rush Buy should post their name there, so that people can see who, in theory, will not use the cheat.
I think Rush buy is an essential element of the game, but not with a production change after - so I feel a Mod to Rushbuy Costs is unacceptable - The solution has to be a Patch which is going to disable switching after Rushbuy - Which I guess is nigh on impossible - That Patch should also be incompatable with the none patched version..
We are a cross section of Society, some people are going to claim they won't cheat, and they will, we will end up with a situation where we dispute any game where the opponents powergraph is much higher than our own, a culture of mistrust would spring up.
There is only one solution at present and it absolutely stinks..... and that would be for everyone to cheat.... But personally I think I would just rather get thrashed, and anyone that cheats against me, I hope you understand your victories are hollow.
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Gavrushka
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Darlington,Co. Durham,UK
Apr 2001
time: 05:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Swissy on 05-18-2001 12:44 AM
Anything that is built into the game, even bugs, cannot be considered cheating. It is a resource, available to all players. Cheating would be altering the game files to give yourself an advantage unavailable to other players. As far as to limiting the effects, don't modify the starting gold. You can't pay the 300+ gold it will take to rush that granary when your city hits pop2, if you only started with 100 gold. The reason the trick works in online games is most games start with 1000+ gold, 4+ settlers, and good at or near max.
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Swissy, please understand that an individuals opinion as to whether or not it is a cheat are irrelevent - IF you agree not to do this AND you do it (the only reason this is used is because it is advantageous) then you are cheating, any games you have previously used this CANNOT be considered cheating, it could be considered unfair, unsportsmanlike, but I think it would be harsh to consider it cheating.....I know many people would not agree with me...
But Swissy if you were asked not to use this in a game by your opponent, would you agree?
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blackice
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Canada where else...
Sep 2000
time: 00:13
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Is it cheating to use it in online Game League Games?
Let's look at the facts, here are the rules of Game League. Rules you have agreed to when you signed up. You can find them here:
http://gameleague.megaultra.com/fea.../faq/cheat.php3
FAQ on Cheating
Can I use bugs in the game to help myself or others?
No.
That I guess is self-explanatory what part of the rule is hard to understand?
Conclusion: USING BUGS IN GAME LEAGUE IS CHEATING PERIOD. Lets move on to the next page you can find that here:
http://gameleague.megaultra.com/fea...es/conduct.php3
II. CONDUCT
A. Cheating is strictly prohibited.
D. Deceiving other members, and especially admins, is illegal.
E. Be polite. Please. (Some forget this one a lot  )
I guess (A.) says it all and since using bugs is cheating it takes no guesswork does it.
(D.) Is interesting, is it deceiving to use a known bug (To a Few) and not tell your opponent before the game begins? IMO of course it is, again it takes no guess work.
So by reading these Facts and Rules YOU AGREED TO WHEN YOU SIGNED ON TO GAME LEAGUE MEANS TO USE THIS BUG IS CHEATING PERIOD. Puts a whole new light on the Game League standings does it not. What a mess for Kwang and the Administrators if all people like me who save their saved game files (All of them ) submitted them now with a dispute about the win, personally I have quite a few hummmmm games. lol. I would assume we would see radical changes to the rankings chart. 
Rule of thumb, too much, too many, too fast.
To summarize this In Game League it is CHEATING there is no guesswork necessary the rules are very clearly defined, here in PBEM we do not have a rule yet. So to those that still use this in Game league and believe it is part of the game try again YOU ARE CHEATING.It is clearly defined in the rules is it not?  Personally I don't see any reason why you can not start a game where all players agree to use the bug in PBEM. That must be stated in the rules of the game before you agree to play it. In all other games it should be considered a CHEAT period. I suggest we keep at least three saved game files in each game it should be a rule. If you suspect someone of exploiting this bug, notify the game moderator of it. Co-operate with the moderator if you are asked for your game files. Lets nip this in the bud so we can get on with fair competitive fun games. Fianally IMO we should respect anyone that comes forward and says they use the bug.
Yes you have to love this game
[This message has been edited by blackice (edited May 18, 2001).]
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Paulno1
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Auckland New Zealand
Mar 2001
time: 05:13
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By the way who do you think told Quinns about the trick
Me of cause lololol. IVe told everyone ive seen since i was aware that some people did not know about it. Its pretty simple idea same thing worked in civ 1, im amazed that other peopel werent aware of it . In civ 2 they got ride of the trick where they penalized tou 50 % for changing production. Why did they not do the same in ctp1 im not sure.
I actually made it too number 1 before i actually used the trick. If you look at all the players ive got my points from recently you will see that they are all very experienced players who all use the trick. The trick is better for the game is the simple fact. With or with out the trick i can still beat everyone that plays, if you dont beleive me play me and see and i wont use the trick.
The only way i can see it being a cheat is if the other player is not aware of it, ive never denied using it. PS what the f**k are you on about SADAM? What the hell is a hacked thing your on about? Would you need to host for that ? If you had ever played me you would notice i dont host anymore. I dont need the host advantage and i hate having to save. Plus my computer is too slow. I didnt lose a game for 7 months because i am a very good player and have played this game far too much hehe.
kINDA IRONIC THAT I STARTED ALL THIS **** LOL.
I like the trick cause it speeds the game up at the start and reduces the land advantage that one player all ways gets.
PS SADAM ITS NOT MY FAULT YOUR WIFE WANTS TO PAY FOR IT (-:.
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St Jon
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BRIGHTON, UK
Aug 2000
time: 05:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Swissy on 05-18-2001 12:44 AM
Anything that is built into the game, even bugs, cannot be considered cheating. It is a resource, available to all players. Cheating would be altering the game files to give yourself an advantage unavailable to other players. As far as to limiting the effects, don't modify the starting gold. You can't pay the 300+ gold it will take to rush that granary when your city hits pop2, if you only started with 100 gold. The reason the trick works in online games is most games start with 1000+ gold, 4+ settlers, and good at or near max.
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I am not sure that is really true. I also play SMAC MP and many bugs specific to PBEM come into effect that are never encountered against the AI. Only one I know of is ever allowed and then only when specifically stated PRIOR to Game Start. It is impossible to directly compare the two Games as the Turns are P/W protected in SMAC, something that eliminates the most obvious cheat, and other Players are advised if the Turn is Played more than once. There are however 'grey areas' which cannot have been deliberated incorporated into the Game by the designers but are still commonly used, eg deliberately continuing to build an already constructed Wonder in anticipation of achieving the correct Tech to switch to a more desirable one with a massive head start. Is that a Trick or a Cheat?
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quinns
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Yes, PaulNo1 is correct. He was the first one to tell me about the "bug" after I asked him what his "secret" was. He was very open about it. Even though I didn't understand him at first. In a game following his telling me about it, PaulNo1, and another co-player, thought that was funny, (that I didn't understand how to use the bug immeditately, "lol"), and both proceeded to whoop my hiney --- bad. Congratulations Paul and co-player. [I forgot who the other player was].
Because of this, I don't think PaulNo1 is a cheater, (a little arrogant, maybe,  but not a cheater). He, obviously, wasn't keeping this "secret" to himself.
The only way to deal with cheaters, successfully, is the same way I've dealt with them in any sport or game I've ever played -- BLACKBALL. This is very harsh treatment, but sometimes it is the only way. Blackball tactics do not have to relate to just cheating. If someone is an a**hole, then this is the only solution. It doesn't mean the a**hole is a cheater. Some people believe I am an a**hole . And so, it goes, I think they are as well. It is a relative term. It is difficult to play a highly competitive game (like this one) and be civil at the same time. That is what "sportsmanship" is all about, though. Trying as hard as you can to beat someone in a sport or game, within the rules, and then shaking hands at the end and saying, "Good match".
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Paulno1
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Auckland New Zealand
Mar 2001
time: 05:13
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Please tell me saddam how do i cheat ?
You have never played me and most people who play at the moment havent played me either, so how do you know i cheat? Its amusing though how you thrash someone and subsequently they call you a cheater lol.
I wouldnt call that trick the secret to how i play though, thats a little bit of an exageration. I can always make it so i preduce faster than everyone else generally. So i preduce ships faster than the other player.
More mines and bigger cities and more cities. The key to winning is to have more infrastructure than the other player, but what to I know. As well as spending your money wisely, having graneries is essential cant get big enough cities otherwise. A city should never reach a city size of 2 without one. But hat do i know lol play me and you will see, find a partner and play me 2 on 1, i wont even use the trick.
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MOBIUS
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Prifysgol Caerdydd
Dec 1999
time: 15:13
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quote:
Originally posted by quinns on 05-18-2001 12:46 PM
Yes, PaulNo1 is correct. He was the first one to tell me about the "bug" after I asked him what his "secret" was. He was very open about it. Even though I didn't understand him at first. In a game following his telling me about it, PaulNo1, and another co-player, thought that was funny, (that I didn't understand how to use the bug immeditately, "lol"), and both proceeded to whoop my hiney --- bad. Congratulations Paul and co-player. [I forgot who the other player was].
Because of this, I don't think PaulNo1 is a cheater, (a little arrogant, maybe, but not a cheater). He, obviously, wasn't keeping this "secret" to himself.
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Correct me if I'm wrong Quinns, you had to ask him!!?
Blackice summarises it neatly with the GameLeague rules - taking advantage of BUGS is CHEATING!
As for 'assuming' everyone knows - thats just a euphemism for 'taking advantage for anyone who does not know'...
Plus the inherent arrogance, implying people must be stupid for not knowing about the bug - some of us prefer to play within the intended rules framework thanks!
As for slow starts - that's why people have produced accelerated start mods, which although far from perfect at least aren't trying to take advantage of unintended side effects!
To suggest the bug was intentional is frankly preposterous and I can't believe some of the people here are trying to add credibility to what is CHEATING!
I doubt very much someone would have volunteered that information to me before starting a game - if I were Blackice I would be severely pissed off for wasting my time and those saved files would be under the noses of the admins before you could say "cheating bastards!" 
I spend too much of my time on this game without having to worry about cheats!
I agree with St Jon that there are 'grey areas' such as the switching production resources in 'mid flow', however that's the way the game has been designed and it is a good way to hide the fact that you're building a wonder (start with big prod items like hospitals or cathedrals b4 switching)...
I'm sorry to have to say this, but I'm glad the 'bug proponents' have been owning up - because then I'll know who to avoid playing against in the future!
[This message has been edited by MOBIUS (edited May 18, 2001).]
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Gavrushka
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Darlington,Co. Durham,UK
Apr 2001
time: 05:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Paulno1 on 05-18-2001 09:29 PM
Please tell me saddam how do i cheat ?
You have never played me and most people who play at the moment havent played me either, so how do you know i cheat? Its amusing though how you thrash someone and subsequently they call you a cheater lol.
I wouldnt call that trick the secret to how i play though, thats a little bit of an exageration. I can always make it so i preduce faster than everyone else generally. So i preduce ships faster than the other player.
More mines and bigger cities and more cities. The key to winning is to have more infrastructure than the other player, but what to I know. As well as spending your money wisely, having graneries is essential cant get big enough cities otherwise. A city should never reach a city size of 2 without one. But hat do i know lol play me and you will see, find a partner and play me 2 on 1, i wont even use the trick.
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Paul, I recognise you must be a good player, I also think that you would not cheat if you said you weren't going to... you are too arrogant!!LOL... If you are really challenging two against one.... I think it would be impossible to win, if you were playing against two good players... (is that called arrogance by Proxy??  ) .... I think it would be good to take up your challenge...I am a mediocre player, and having played good players, I know the gap between me and them is not a chasm, and if you took on me and say Quinns, or Blackice you could not win, no matter HOW good or HOW lucky you got in the game - If you really want to, and for your points status I advise you against it, lets do it!!
For your benefit we could take a five turn save, so no one could argue you were cheating, and no returns to saved games - single monumental session..
So if you are up for it.....Lets do it, and if you really are that good, and can beat two players, then I'll never speak to you again...LOL...
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Fuzzball
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of bellybutton fluff
Apr 2001
time: 15:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Saddam on 05-17-2001 09:16 PM
Paul you suck, you are only number one because you whacked hundred of people using that trick before any of us knew about it . Besides were not talking about LAN play, we talking about PBEM. Go to CTP-Multiplaying.
I also know you are using a hacked executable you cheating whore
[This message has been edited by Saddam (edited May 17, 2001).]
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Another hypocrite to throw petty accusations out of their own frustration and insecurity. I remember a game with you Saddam when you had about 35 to 40 cities the size of 1 and 2 mostly. The majority had nothing but caravans. You had used the ol' switcheroo for sure that time, and you have denied it to the hilt in all your posts here, and i've not gainsaid you until you began with your petty accusations.
There were many days also, when both Paul and I sat in the lobbies sharing this knowledge with newbies and experienced gamers alike. So it wasn't a secret cheat to anyone.
Now about this cracked exe rubbish. I heard tell that this little piece of useless crap was publicized by yourself, Saladino, Ivat and a few others. I heard you were all very upset also when you found it was a waste of time, hindering one's civ more than helping. You know what they say huh, about the guilty people pointing the finger.....It's a sad thing really.
I've had some serious disagreements with Paul before. We don't really get along so great because of some stupid things we've said to eachother before. But when it comes to this game, alot of people unjustly accuse him of silly rubbish like this because of their own inability to beat him on even ground.
Blackice, about the quotes from the gameleague rules etc...Dude, if that were the case, %99 of the players there would be banned. EVERYONE there has tried this on once or twice. Some because they fear their opponents may expand on trade faster, others out of hope that their opponent is unaware of it, and they can take advantage of the situation. About gameleague too.....I think only a couple of games have been played there ni the last few weeks...The games grow less and less. The talk grows more and more. The accusations are getting wilder. And there has been a lack of any administrative activity there for probably over 2 months now. Damn shame really.
I'm now moderating the Call to Power Forum at Gametalk. It's early days yet for this one....But I am trying to organize a few people to join me in setting up a new legitimate and active ladder site for individual ctp gamers and tribe gamers. Pbem and lobby play. Now this has only come about because gameleague has fallen apart, and although we get many new players in the lobbies and in pbem's nowadays, many are discouraged by all this rubbish on the gameleague front page, and talk of cheating etc. I'll need some honest people to help me moderate some games when we're up and running Blackice. This won't be pulling anyone away from Apolyton or Gameleague. It will be encouraging CTP gamers to know all these sites, and become a member of every single one of them. Still a free service for gamers, no worries there. But we want to sort out all this cheating rubbish with active game moderators and site administraion. And make it a gamer friendly site, where you can make some Pals as well as set up competitve games, via teams and individually. Any input is welcome at the moment, as I'm still brainstorming about the layout, setup, format, and the best way to implicate it all. I was planning on putting something like this on Civgaming.net's hosting facility quite a while ago, but sadly this still cannot be used.
Well, my time's about up for this week now. I'd encourage people to talk to me on my email if they would like to, as I still have to use a second isp to access apolyton nowadays.  Kinda costly, and it can't be used for downloads.
Cheers all. Fuzz.
[This message has been edited by Fuzzball (edited May 19, 2001).]
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quinns
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We think alike Gavrushka (that's a scary thought ). I was thinking exactly the same thing. What do you say Paulno1? Let's settle this once and for all.
Settings:
Game Name = First CTP Invitational
Internet game; deity level; raging hordes; regular size map; donut world; random map; all map settings at 50%; 3 settlers, 100 gold; restart until 3600 B.C., GL game; no rush buy/remove tricks; no other bug utilization tricks; speed cities -- 30 seconds max per city (no time pestering); 4 hour sessions; break every 2 hours.
Game will start at:
7:00 a.m. Auckland, New Zealand
12:00 p.m. (high noon ) Los Angeles, USA
3:00 p.m. Toronto, Canada
8:00 p.m. London, Great Britain
Proposed Players:
1. Paulno1 (New Zealand) -- Number 1 player on CTP GameLeague for several months.
2. Quinns (United States) -- Number 15 player on CTP PBEM Ratings, number 93 player on CTP GameLeague (new to GameLeague) .
3. Blackice (Canada) -- Number 24 player on CTP Gameleague, (new to CTP PBEM).
4. Gavrushka (United Kingdom) -- Number 92 player on CTP Gameleague (new to GameLeague).
5. (One more player... Mobius [number 1 player on CTP PBEM], or Saddam, or Fuzzball ??)
One moderator (any volunteers?)
If agreed to by all players, pick a Saturday or Sunday. I am available next Saturday, May 26 at noon PDT.
"Let's get ready to rumble!"
[This message has been edited by quinns (edited May 19, 2001).]
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quinns
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Actually, Solver... now that you mention it, we COULD rate the internet games. As long as the VOLUME of reported games remains below about 10 per week, I could handle the data entry. (If it goes beyond this volume level, maybe somebody could create the programming interface to do this. I would contribute 20 megabytes of space on my hosted www.worldtennisratings.com website, if someone was willing to do it.)
We would handle it the same way as PBEM game ratings with some changes, of course:
CTP Internet Game Rankings Incorporation
1) There would be only one rating for player, i.e. it would turn into "CTP Ratings" instead of "CTP PBEM Ratings".
2) There would be no *9 turn ratings. Instead, the internet game would be ranked in reverse order of elimination, (or any other agreed upon victory conditions).
3) All CTP rated games would permit no use of "bug tricks" or any other kind of misuse of the intended game rules.
4) (Other rules, I'm sure, ... just can't think of them now.)
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17-05-2001 15:14
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