23-09-2002 23:39									#151
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you are all for the US supporting regimes thatkill and torture people and you have said this clearly.

And yeah I am glad for the ****ing Britain did toy Ireland. They are worthless people anyway.

And they ****ed them up good

Meanwhile you need to keep reading my sig and ackllowledge and be ashamed for the genocide of the armenians by Turkey and for the massacres of the Kurdish women and children as well.


you're so funny my litte stalker try not to crap your pants

	23-09-2002 23:47									#152
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And you can keep reading my sig and be ashamed of your hatred and joy in the suffering of others!

"try not to crap your pants "

If I have to crap I will do so on your shirt. Nobody will notice because your shirt is brown you fascist scum.

	23-09-2002 23:49									#153
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whatever, whatever, murderer of the people

	24-09-2002 00:08									#154
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quote: You are Croatian aren't you? It may sound weird but my brother is fond of your country and reads about it's history a lot(Medieval primary). He has "transfered" a bit of his interest to me also. He also loves your national soccer team.

dont think you can sweet-talk me that easily you genocidal greek DL!!

ah, hell, yes you can

btw., your brother sounds like a real smart guy

	24-09-2002 00:15									#155
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I hope, Paiktis, that the emerging Iraq war and aftermath gives us an opportunity finally deal with Turkey on the issue of Genocide and its treatment of the Kurds. At a minimum, the Turks should formally acknowledge what they did and pay reparations.

I also believe the fallout from Iraq will have some form of independent Kurdistan. If we do not address their desire for independence, we are simply going to postpone the problem to a later date when it may be more difficult to deal with. One example of this is our delay in dealing with Saddam.

	24-09-2002 00:50									#156
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi The alleged Armenian genocide took place before other countries comitted genocide, such as Germany's and Russia, and yet you do not condemn those countries.

That is not because Paiktis is racist. The problem is that Turks still deny the Armenian Genocide.

Germany don't deny the genocid of the WWII. So we have no more reason to endless recall them it. But we have to pressure turks to force them to accept their bloody history.

	24-09-2002 04:22									#157
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The problem is that forcing them is considered dangerous as it may push them into religious fanaticism and anti-europeanism.

	25-09-2002 16:37									#158
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I wonder how Turks would react if THEY had suffered genocide.

	26-09-2002 00:42									#159
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Uh. Perhaps there would be no-one to react...

	26-09-2002 01:16									#160
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Geia sou Paikti!

Well let me say this, since I live in Germany and more often than not we hear that Germans owe this and that to the world, to the Jews, to the Polish, etc. is in some ways correct and some people have the right to demand it. But come on we had to pay billions of $ to repay people for the forced labor that a lot of German companies were involved with. People should learn from history not to repeat the mistakes of the past (sadly we never do) but we should also learn to move on (sadly Greeks, Americans and lots of others do not do that always). Now OT with the Turks they were never really held responsible for their qrotesque monstrosities. The never had to carry the burden and none forced them to do it either, unlike the bashing you get here in Germany. I believe that part of it is the fact that they never grew out of it like the Germans. They were also never forced by the "big powers" since there is a lot to gain in Turkey but more importantly they lack self-criticism the most important trait when it comes to maturing and becoming responsible. Certainly they never had to pay for their criminal behavior not in monetary terms nor in any other.

So Shi and all the others out there saying what we are being fanatical, maybe we are as long as they do not stand up and take responsibility for these acts.

As a side note about the fanatical thing. About 12 years ago while I was in the US and discussing the muslim extremist matter with Americans, they were accusing me of being fanatical aand biased because of our neighboors. Well we Greeks do certainly have more experience with them than most of you on the other side of the continent and I knew what a muslim extremist is. The funny thing of all is that when I claimed that attacks could happen in the US they thought I was crazy.

So long...

PS: There were two big crisis with Turkey that I remember, one in 1987 and another one in 1996 and believe me until you lived through something like that your opinions out there from some nice suburban home in Pleasantville does not weight much with me.

	28-09-2002 11:52									#161
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quote: Originally posted by Heresson Uh. Perhaps there would be no-one to react...

	28-09-2002 11:57									#162
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Hey Pioneer what is that "Hellas grill"? Do you work there or something?

I don't think what the Germans did in WWII can be possibly compared to Turkish atrocities. Jewish deaths have been largely exagerated IMHO, plus the "Holocaust" has been turned into an industry with the Jews trying to gain as much as possible.

The Turks in a few years eliminated thousands of years of history( the first Greeks settled Asia minor in 800 Bc), not only "foreign" nationals.

	28-09-2002 18:55									#163
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Jewisz deaths (6mln) aren't exagerrated. It's just that "Jew" doesn't mean Israeli, and doesn't mean Jew
even. It's 6mln of victims with Jewish ancestors, sometimes pretty far from being Jewish=patriotic.
And yes, Jews are using Holocaust memory in bad way.
Me, I think that studies of Jewish holocaust alone, which exist through many countries, are idiotic idea.
Are there studies about Great Famine in USSR for example? And there were many more victims, and they were dieing in worse way.

	30-09-2002 04:45									#164
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come on guys, we should agree that killing women and children is pathetic and inexcusable, whether they settled in the place 6 months ago or a millenia ago.

israel got reparations, and I think its ok it did.

what should they have done?

yugoslavia also got reparations from germany, and perhaps many other countries. so what?

quote: Are there studies about Great Famine in USSR for example? And there were many more victims, and they were dieing in worse way.

are all poles a bit antisemitic, or just you?

why does it bother you they study their own (painfull) history?

	30-09-2002 19:08									#165
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quote: are all poles a bit antisemitic, or just you? why does it bother you they study their own (painfull) history?

I'm not forbidding it. They can have such studies,
though I think it is silly anyway. But when a guy comes here and says that Polish-Jewish relationships aren't good because there are no Holocaust studies in Poland, it is silly. Jewish holocaust is only one of great tragedies of XX century, though one of the major ones. I don't think that saying that is antisemitic.

	01-10-2002 04:31									#166
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yeah I dont say poles are evil (or you)

hell we have same word for pivo

	01-10-2002 05:08									#167
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I love these threads. Paiktis misuses the word genocide (ethnic cleansing is more appropriate), and then all hell breaks loose.

Just so you understand where I'm coming from, I view genocide as the attempt to exterminate the entirety of an ethnic group. Hitler's goal was to elimate all jews from the world. Turkey's goal was to eliminate non-Turks from territory that it wanted. The difference is more a matter of degree.

Genocide is far more rare, and is done for more ideological reasons that calculated ones. It's different to kill people because it's convenient, and something else to kill them because you want to kill them.

What the Turks did was still terrible, but posting threads like this doesn't fix that.

	01-10-2002 06:10									#168
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quote: Originally posted by Palaiologos I don't think what the Germans did in WWII can be possibly compared to Turkish atrocities. Jewish deaths have been largely exagerated IMHO, plus the "Holocaust" has been turned into an industry with the Jews trying to gain as much as possible.

Scratch a nationalist, find an anti-semite.

Let's have a look at the 'exaggerations'- these are conservative estimates, based on the figures assembled by the S.S. and the Reich's Foreign Ministry- who were actually quite assiduous at record-keeping:

Jews murdered as a percentage of 1939 Jewish population:

1. Benelux countries: 56% (130, 000 people)

2. Germany/Austria/Czechoslovakia: 50% (310, 000 people)

3. Poland: 90% (3, 000, 000 people)

4. Soviet Union (includes Baltic States): 28% (900, 000 people)

5. Rumania: 34% (270, 000 people)

6. Yugoslvia: 80% (60, 000 people)

7. Greece: 81% (60, 000 people)

8. Hungary 75% ( 300, 000 people)

9. France/Italy: 22% (70, 000 people)

10. Norway: 38% (750 people)

11. Denmark: 1% (70 people)

12. Bulgaria 0 %

Of course you don't have to take my word for it- how about a confession from the Kommandant of Auschwitz-Birkenau?

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/1946hoess.html

A list of all the grotesque ways used to exterminate European Jewry and the 'scientific' approach makes sobering reading. They progress from such unwieldy methods as shooting at mass burial sites, to gassing with carbon monoxide in lorries and vans (too slow, not efficient/lethal enough) to the more sophisticated Zyklon B chambers, and to 'imaginative' methods such as benzene injections and experiments without anaesthetic.

This is not to gloss over the brutality extended towards the captive civilian non-Jewish populations as reprisals, or to ignore the bombings of Warsaw, Rotterdam or Coventry, the liquidation of the populations of Oradour-sur-Glane and Lidice, or the Romany holocaust, or, for that matter, persecution of Jehovah's Witnesses, gay men and people with physical and mental disabilities.

What singles out the Jewish Holocaust in WWII, are the methods employed and the extent. As Hitler is recorded as saying to the Czech Foreign Ministr, Chvalkovsky in January 1939:

'"Our Jews will be destroyed."

and that if war came, :

"...the result would be...[...] the annihilation of the Jewish race in Europe."

from: German Foreign Policy Documents, Series D, Vol.IV, P.170

and

Domarus: Hitler Reden und Proklamationen 1932-1945, Vol.II, p. 1058

	01-10-2002 06:49									#169
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quote: Originally posted by molly bloom Scratch a nationalist, find an anti-semite.

Does that include American nationalists and Israeli nationalists?

	01-10-2002 07:13									#170
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Patriotism is frequently the last refuge of a scoundrel. However I did not say scratch all nationalists, did I?

It is an unfortunate occurrence, however that the growth/re-growth of nationalism is frequently tied into racism/discrimination directed towards those who are perceived to be minorities who are deemed not to possess the requisite 'investment' in the nation state- this despite the fact that in the Jewish Museum in Amsterdam you can see fascinating memorabilia from the German Army of WW1 - photographs of large open air Jewish religious services with the congregation made up of German soldiers in uniform.

	01-10-2002 11:38									#171
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quote: Originally posted by Palaiologos Hey Pioneer what is that "Hellas grill"? Do you work there or something?

Oxi, egw doulevw gia allh etairia sto Duesseldorf, auto to Restaurant anoikei ston patera mou (edw kai 30 peripou xronia)!

Well OT again, I'd say that keeping the memory alive is a good thing but why do we only keep the Holocaust alive. I mean there have been countless others throughout the last, say 400-500 years that should be kept alive as much as possible. But the ones in more recent memory from the past century really stand out because we still have survivors from some of them. Were they less barbaric? What difference does it make if it was a "genocide" or an "ethnic cleansing"? Germans feel guilty for what their fathers did but so should a lot of other countries in Europe and otehr parts of the world but it seems to me that we only keep alive what some deem worthy to keep alive! Now what purpose does that serve and finally what kind of respect is that towards our ancestors and our history!?

So long...

	01-10-2002 11:41									#172
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The Holocaust is different in that it was systematic and industrialized.

I realize that is a small confort to the victims of other genocides. It was the first genocide capture on film, and that makes it the first "real" genocide.

	01-10-2002 16:23									#173
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quote: Originally posted by Felch X I love these threads. Paiktis misuses the word genocide (ethnic cleansing is more appropriate), and then all hell breaks loose. Just so you understand where I'm coming from, I view genocide as the attempt to exterminate the entirety of an ethnic group. Hitler's goal was to elimate all jews from the world. Turkey's goal was to eliminate non-Turks from territory that it wanted. The difference is more a matter of degree. Genocide is far more rare, and is done for more ideological reasons that calculated ones. It's different to kill people because it's convenient, and something else to kill them because you want to kill them. What the Turks did was still terrible, but posting threads like this doesn't fix that.

Turks were slaughtering Armenians also in the places where they weren't claiming for territory.
Takingf into account that all Armenia was in Turkish claims, it ment destruction of practically all Armenians
- the same as for Jews. I didn't hear about Hitler
demanding Jews from Equador or whatever - but if
He conquered it, I guess He would kill them.

	01-10-2002 17:30									#174
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara The Holocaust is different in that it was systematic and industrialized. I realize that is a small confort to the victims of other genocides. It was the first genocide capture on film, and that makes it the first "real" genocide.

Well, I'll take your argument about it being industrialized but it was not the first (nor the last unfortunately) that was systematic.

It's true though that lots of the facts was captured on reel and besides all the t estimonies and still pictures tend to make us "see it and feel" it more but I still do believe that partly it's because some want it to be that way! Which is ok, as long as they also try to keep other such macabre events in memory for the following generations t o remember!

So long...

	12-10-2002 03:33									#175
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This conversation is about Turks, not Jews.

Please let's just stay on subject.

	12-10-2002 03:55									#176
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Heresson is right.

	16-10-2002 21:38									#177
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quote: Originally posted by Palaiologos Heresson is right.

As always
Thank You