02-01-2003 02:44									#241
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i have a "israel" has never fought a super power

HA i mean come one if the US invaded "israel" "israel" would be horribely defated

	02-01-2003 02:48									#242
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quote: Originally posted by mazzz i have a "israel" has never fought a super power HA i mean come one if the US invaded "israel" "israel" would be horribely defated

hi ,

sure , thats what people sayed when the US went into vietnam , .....

have a nice day

	02-01-2003 03:58									#243
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ok whatever just tell me ONE superpower israel fought,! stop dodgeding the ?

	02-01-2003 04:02									#244
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quote: Originally posted by panag the biggest point of having them join the game would de to creat scenarios , scenarios you cant make without them , .... this way we can all fight on the side we want and see for ourself what we want , ....

I don't have any problem with having scenarios based on the post war situation in the Middle East. The Israelis would have to be included in any such scenario by definition. I believe you can download such scenarios for Civ II. Perhaps someone will make one for Civ III.

However, I stand by not introducing countless more civilisations into the game, unless the game is to be called "Tribe" rather than "Civilisation".

quote: sure , thats what people sayed when the US went into vietnam , .....

I don't think the Vietnamese style of guerilla warfare would work very well in Israel due to the terrain... and to my knowledge the US position was to defend the fiction of South Vietnam against the north - rather than to invade it.

I very much doubt that Israel could survive a direct invasion by any of the armies I labelled. After all the Arabs who are basically useless nearly had you in the Yom Kippur War, did they not?

	02-01-2003 06:11									#245
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon As for the rest, you are quite clearly being absurd. Let's see - we shall stick up Israel against the forces of the US, Russia, or China shall we? And you still say they would win.

Huh? I never said that! :P

You stated that Israel couldn't survive without the US, I showed you that they survived quite well for 20 years without US help. That's all I stated.

(although Russia was heavily involved in the Six day war and the Yom Kippur war, although Israel didn't fight the full Russian might.)

[snip stuff I didn't post]

(I'm kinda ammused you consider Russia, China, England and France superpowers. And who can't beat France?

	02-01-2003 08:18									#246
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quote: Originally posted by Edan Huh? I never said that! :P You stated that Israel couldn't survive without the US, I showed you that they survived quite well for 20 years without US help. That's all I stated.

I thought I was quite clear. I meant that if the US completely withdrew their support now (and I'd say if it had done in the last 20 years), Israel would be a goner. Things have changed since the 60s. For one the whole mideast region is more strategically important than it ever was. In recent years the US veto has been the only effective prevention against sanctions of various sorts being applied to Israel over the Palestinian issue (they are really despised that much). I don't think they would last long if an embargo similar to that used against Iraq was imposed. An economically weakened Israel wouldn't have the cash to maintain its military, especially if the billions in US aid was removed.

quote: (I'm kinda ammused you consider Russia, China, England and France superpowers. And who can't beat France?

I'd bet on them - they all have significant nuclear and conventional arsenals. They have bigger economies and military forces. We aren't talking about a few Arab conscripts here.

	02-01-2003 09:12									#247
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon I thought I was quite clear. I meant that if the US completely withdrew their support now (and I'd say if it had done in the last 20 years), Israel would be a goner.

Even if that were the case (and I'm doubtful that the UN would do anything, unless the US was the one that proposed, and strongly backed, an attack on Israel) Israel could always sell weapon technology to, say, China, and get them to veto any UN resolutions.... I'm sure China would be more than willing.

	02-01-2003 16:10									#248
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quote: Originally posted by Kingof the Apes pff, it's the French's fault /*back on topic*/ True, the army of Isreal is not huge, but it has prevailed over several other countries that are both larger and have more personnel. (I am not sure, but I believe that Isreal has been undefeated in all of it's wars.) But military accomplishments are not the most significant part of this civilization.

Almost. The war with Lebanon is considered lost, at least in the history class I took last year. But they have prevailed over many times as numerous forces on several occations.

quote: Originally posted by Kingof the Apes GhengisFarb, I'm looking forward to your leaderhead.

Me too.

I'd like an Israeli/Hebrew civ, for the very simple reason that I liked playing them in CtP and I find their history interesting.

	03-01-2003 05:50									#249
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quote: Originally posted by Edan Even if that were the case (and I'm doubtful that the UN would do anything, unless the US was the one that proposed, and strongly backed, an attack on Israel) Israel could always sell weapon technology to, say, China, and get them to veto any UN resolutions.... I'm sure China would be more than willing.

This is, of course, a possibility; but I don't think anyone would dispute that Israel without US backing would be in a much weaker position. As for China - the Arabs have oil, which is something that China will need a lot of in years to come in order to enact policy decisions which have been made.

	03-01-2003 08:26									#250
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quote: but I don't think anyone would dispute that Israel without US backing would be in a much weaker position.

Certainly true.

	03-01-2003 10:43									#251
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I retract my statement that Sharon is a fatty. It was just mean thing to say and I am sorry.

I am American and we the people love Israel

	03-01-2003 11:10									#252
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quote: Originally posted by High_Lord I retract my statement that Sharon is a fatty. It was just mean thing to say and I am sorry. I am American and we the people love Israel

hi ,

, okay , keep talking , .....




have a nice day

	03-01-2003 20:43									#253
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Sharon is a fatty older version of Hitler. He is not hebrew, is just another assassin. Sorry if somebody dislike my opinion.

BTW: Arafat is not quite different of Sharon...

	03-01-2003 22:44									#254
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quote: Sharon is a fatty older version of Hitler. He is not hebrew, is just another assassin. Sorry if somebody dislike my opinion.

say, where are you from, so I could flame-troll the **** out of your country, just like you did ?

	04-01-2003 02:05									#255
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quote: They aren't even in the top five mate. I agree that the Israelis have an excellent military - in fact I would say that they are arguably the best; but there just aren't enough of them to withstand a real superpower. Do you honestly think that the IDF could whip full might of the United States military machine, or the Russians, or the Chinese, or even the British or the French? You're kidding, right?

In 1973 the number of soldiers, tanks and other military equipment directed against Israel was the size of the entire NATO military in Western Europe.

The soldiers were Arabs though, so there were serious quality wise differences.

Also, dont forget that Israel's nuclear arsenal is bigger than the British one and close to the French.

	04-01-2003 03:16									#256
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My money would be on Isreal even if Egypt, Jordon, Syria, Iraq, and Libya all declared war against Isreal in the near future and the US stayed out.

And if the war lasts more than 3 weeks, the Isreali army would probably be aproaching both Egypt's and Syria's capitals.

Didn't know that French had more nukes than the British. I dought the French would have done anything if some terriorsts had flown French commerical aircraft into their national landmark so I'm not sure why the French govt has so many nukes.

	04-01-2003 07:34									#257
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quote: Originally posted by Eli quote: They aren't even in the top five mate. I agree that the Israelis have an excellent military - in fact I would say that they are arguably the best; but there just aren't enough of them to withstand a real superpower. Do you honestly think that the IDF could whip full might of the United States military machine, or the Russians, or the Chinese, or even the British or the French? You're kidding, right? In 1973 the number of soldiers, tanks and other military equipment directed against Israel was the size of the entire NATO military in Western Europe. The soldiers were Arabs though, so there were serious quality wise differences. Also, dont forget that Israel's nuclear arsenal is bigger than the British one and close to the French.

I don't know how many nuclear weapons Israel has but I would be surprised if an accurate figure was available to the public.

I don't see what all this has to do with the game anyway.

And

Ariel Sharon is indisputably a fatty - just look at him.

	04-01-2003 20:45									#258
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errm, I don't mind that, I mind the Hitler comparison.

	04-01-2003 21:04									#259
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i think this comparison is way too hard, but... well, A.S. is not doing much to prove the opposite either - sorry.

however, a politician shouldn't be judged by his looks (whether sharon weighs 60, 100 or 200 kg doesn't matter the slightest bit). it's the things politicians DO which count.

gorbatchov had his big birthmark on his head, napoleon was very small, churchill smoked lethal cigars, helmut kohl was 1.90m (6"3) tall and weighed approx. 130 kg (~285 pounds), a female adviser of blair was nearly bold, etc. etc. etc. --> nothing really matters, as long as they do their job and they do it well...

[edit: corrections]

	04-01-2003 21:59									#260
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quote: Originally posted by Eli quote: They aren't even in the top five mate. I agree that the Israelis have an excellent military - in fact I would say that they are arguably the best; but there just aren't enough of them to withstand a real superpower. Do you honestly think that the IDF could whip full might of the United States military machine, or the Russians, or the Chinese, or even the British or the French? You're kidding, right? In 1973 the number of soldiers, tanks and other military equipment directed against Israel was the size of the entire NATO military in Western Europe. The soldiers were Arabs though, so there were serious quality wise differences. Also, dont forget that Israel's nuclear arsenal is bigger than the British one and close to the French.

hi ,

ours shall be a bit bigger then the French , they are getting rid of most of the nukes , they only keep a couple for airplanes and the rest is on sub's , they have no longer land based ICBM's and artillery shells , ....

have a nice day

	04-01-2003 22:01									#261
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon I don't know how many nuclear weapons Israel has but I would be surprised if an accurate figure was available to the public. I don't see what all this has to do with the game anyway. And Ariel Sharon is indisputably a fatty - just look at him.

hi ,

and what has the clothing size of Ariel Sharon to do with the game , .......

have a nice day

	04-01-2003 22:04									#262
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quote: Originally posted by XarXo Sharon is a fatty older version of Hitler. He is not hebrew, is just another assassin. Sorry if somebody dislike my opinion. BTW: Arafat is not quite different of Sharon...

and what the heck has this to do with the civ3 game , and you are completely wrong , ......

you can give your opinion's some where else

	04-01-2003 22:07									#263
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quote: Originally posted by sabrewolf i think this comparison is way too hard, but... well, A.S. is not doing much to prove the opposite either - sorry. however, a politician shouldn't be judged by his looks (whether sharon weighs 60, 100 or 200 kg doesn't matter the slightest bit). it's the things politicians DO which count. gorbatchov had his big birthmark on his head, napoleon was very small, churchill smoked lethal cigars, helmut kohl was 1.90m (6"3) tall and weighed approx. 130 kg (~285 pounds), a female adviser of blair was nearly bold, etc. etc. etc. --> nothing really matters, as long as they do their job and they do it well... [edit: corrections]

hi ,

well how shall we look when we reach that age , ......

in his young days he was looking not to bad , .....

, to get this thread back on topic ; what leaderhead should be used , ......

have a nice day

	04-01-2003 23:53									#264
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Re: Top five militaries vs. Israel

Well, doubtless Israel couldn't deal with an American invasion, but look at Russia! That can't even keep Chechnya in line. Israel is rated #1 in efficiency, but size-wise, the IDF is quite small, so no, no global conquests for Israel... but no conquest OF Israel anytime soon that I could imagine.

	05-01-2003 09:21									#265
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Israel in Civ 3 is like including Gypsies (as I said a couple of times before), just they are rich.

They never formed a big country, if they should be in Civ 3 is quite a bad reason. I preffer Thai-Siamese for example.

Their remarkable cultural apportation is only based in the bible. They are not christians, so including Romans in the game was a better choice (they expanded the religion after 313 aC and they are the base of the first "saints" and christian mythology). This book is great, yes, but the roman laws, the ramayana-mahabarata, the coran (yes, i'm not crazy) and a lot of other codes are great too.

-------- OUT of Civ3 --------

panag, you MUST recognize that "CONTROLLED TERRORISM ELIMINATION" is a nonsense of killings. Sharon know something about "prisons" and their use?

What about the Cisjordania and Gaza territories? They NEVER where included in the original british colony, in fact, they are "gifts" from Jordania and Egypt to palestinians.

Finally, palestinians (as appeared in this thread) in a looong past where philistines, descendants of the canaanites, and THEY stayed here before than hebrews (oh yes, God intervention... I forgot it ).

If your country is a small, desertic, poor piece of the world, sorry man, there are a lot of countries in a worse situation (but remember! THAT is a God gift Woah!).

	05-01-2003 23:48									#266
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quote: Originally posted by XarXo Israel in Civ 3 is like including Gypsies (as I said a couple of times before), just they are rich. They never formed a big country, if they should be in Civ 3 is quite a bad reason. I preffer Thai-Siamese for example. Their remarkable cultural apportation is only based in the bible. They are not christians, so including Romans in the game was a better choice (they expanded the religion after 313 aC and they are the base of the first "saints" and christian mythology). This book is great, yes, but the roman laws, the ramayana-mahabarata, the coran (yes, i'm not crazy) and a lot of other codes are great too. -------- OUT of Civ3 -------- panag, you MUST recognize that "CONTROLLED TERRORISM ELIMINATION" is a nonsense of killings. Sharon know something about "prisons" and their use? What about the Cisjordania and Gaza territories? They NEVER where included in the original british colony, in fact, they are "gifts" from Jordania and Egypt to palestinians. Finally, palestinians (as appeared in this thread) in a looong past where philistines, descendants of the canaanites, and THEY stayed here before than hebrews (oh yes, God intervention... I forgot it ). If your country is a small, desertic, poor piece of the world, sorry man, there are a lot of countries in a worse situation (but remember! THAT is a God gift Woah!).

hi ,

look man , can you keep your BS in the off topic threads on this site and NOT in a game thread , ......

and you seem to be only getting your information from one side , .....

so keep the OT in the OT

have a nice day

	06-01-2003 00:47									#267
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Gee... I'm actually agreeing with panag on this one

If you want to talk politics, do it in the OTF. This thread is about Civ... Not what's happening now in real life...

	06-01-2003 02:54									#268
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quote: Finally, palestinians (as appeared in this thread) in a looong past where philistines, descendants of the canaanites, and THEY stayed here before than hebrews

ermmm, where? at it's own time, the Hebrew kingdom was the only canaanite kingdom remaining. The Phoenicians were long gone at the start of the christian era. the Edomites were integrated into the hebrew kingdom. The first arabs to rule a piece of this land were the Nabateans, that ruled southern Jordan (edom) and the Negev. many of the arabs that are in this land today are not of arabic descent, but since they choose to call themselves arabs, I would call them that way, just as the christian 'arabs' that live next door, are perhaps the greatgrandchildren of christian migrants, since they look rather european. Ethnicity doesn't define nationality. Just look at the Sudan, and at Iraq, and tell me that they're of the same ethnicity, yet both consider themselves to be 'arab' by nationality.

about the stupid "Israel vs. top 5 militaries of the world" is a stupid debate, Since no smart country would dare to invade another country with nukes. the US would be able to conquer Israel, but it would loose a couple of it's most important cities. So would any other nation on earth, since Israel has nukes and has space launch capability which equals ICBMs.

I've already stated my position on the subject, to include the canaanites as a civ, have both phoenician and ancient Israeli and Canaanite cities,as well as modern Israeli cities. I am sure that the combined richness of both of these civilizations would make it worthwhile to include in Civ4: Play-with-yourself.

	06-01-2003 20:20									#269
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel ermmm, where? at it's own time, the Hebrew kingdom was the only canaanite kingdom remaining. The Phoenicians were long gone at the start of the christian era. the Edomites were integrated into the hebrew kingdom. The first arabs to rule a piece of this land were the Nabateans, that ruled southern Jordan (edom) and the Negev. many of the arabs that are in this land today are not of arabic descent, but since they choose to call themselves arabs, I would call them that way, just as the christian 'arabs' that live next door, are perhaps the greatgrandchildren of christian migrants, since they look rather european. Ethnicity doesn't define nationality. Just look at the Sudan, and at Iraq, and tell me that they're of the same ethnicity, yet both consider themselves to be 'arab' by nationality. about the stupid "Israel vs. top 5 militaries of the world" is a stupid debate, Since no smart country would dare to invade another country with nukes. the US would be able to conquer Israel, but it would loose a couple of it's most important cities. So would any other nation on earth, since Israel has nukes and has space launch capability which equals ICBMs. I've already stated my position on the subject, to include the canaanites as a civ, have both phoenician and ancient Israeli and Canaanite cities,as well as modern Israeli cities. I am sure that the combined richness of both of these civilizations would make it worthwhile to include in Civ4: Play-with-yourself.

FINALLY someone with an informed opinion!

And one other thing... Israel is worth including because of the Roman-Jewish conflict ALONE. Why else include the Carthaginians, Zulus, Aztecs? Sure, they had empires. So did about 100 other groups/cities/nations you could name. They are there to add DRAMA to the game. If you don't want history in Civ, play a more detailed war-game! (imo)

	06-01-2003 23:56									#270
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The Jewish-Roman conflict was a relatively large one, and judea was a well-known province, for it's rebel spirit, But the civ game demands a civilization or a family of civilizations that existed for thousands of years ( Or is the US ). Just as the times there were a united India, or China were numbered, and just as the babylonian civ actually represents all of the Two-river civilizations, I propose a canaanite civ that would encompass the canaanites, the Hebrews, and the phoenicians, as well as their children, the Carthaginians and the Israelis of the modern age. I propose their strengths to be religious, for the hebrews' advances in theological and thus, phylosophical thinking, and commercial to represent the carthaginians' and their ancestors, the phoenicians' strength in commerce. Their leader could be Hebrew or could be carthaginian, these are all details. But they deserve a place in civ. (as many more civs do, btw. )