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Velociryx
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of Candle'Bre
Apr 1999
time: 05:22
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I put it off as long as I could stand, but in the end, curiosity got the better of me, and I found myself cracking open the box and loading the game.
Ohhhh man! I cannot believe I have been missing out on this GEM of a game for so long!
Even in its unmodded form, I discovered a game with a beautiful, intuitive interface (a good thing, since my copy did not come with a bound manual....some digging revealed a wordpad manual in a sub-folder tho, which was invaluable).
The first thing I was struck by was how much sense Public Works made....I really like that system.
Second was the STAGGERING array of stats at your fingertips. Admittedly, this was, at first glance, an overwhelming amount of information, but I think it primarily felt that way because other games in this same genre (Civ3), don't even come CLOSE to providing that level of information! Having all that available really made me feel as though I was managing an EMPIRE, and not a collection of city states. Very good stuff.
The game also had an inescapable epic look and feel to it, right from the first turn. There was a genuine sense of discovery from the get-go, and (granted, I'm still in the BC era....1300something), I don't see any signs of letup.
Diplomatic options were more robust...another plus, and I like the army system, tho at first glance, my sense is that it makes ranged attack units too powerful (I chose the Scots for my first game, wound up on the same continent as the Zulu, who attacked me unprovoked, taking the city of Stirling--which I got free, btw, thanks to a "goody thingy"--....I responded with two "armies" consisting of two Hoplites and two Archers (also free from goody hut thingys), and dismantled their empire without losing a soul.
I LOVE the...groping for the correct term....the historical events that provide wonder-like effects. It made the recapture of Stirling truly FEEL like a proud moment in the history of our empire (and likewise when we circimnavigated the globe...the only two I have recieved thus far).
Seems like around every corner, and inside every nook and cranny of the game, there's some new, wonderful secret to discover. I can honestly say that Civ3 NEVER gave me that feeling. Very definitely, there's a sense of excitement in the early game of Civ3, but that's not what I'm talking about.
This game is *wonderful!*
-=Vel=-
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Velociryx
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of Candle'Bre
Apr 1999
time: 05:22
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Oh....I can clearly see why the game was modded, but the thing is....even UN-Modded, it's so much more intricate, and epic than other games in the genre....it's, IMO, a better blending of concepts than EU (which can be draggy...don't get me wrong, I LOVE EU, but the pacing in this game is PERFECT!).
More governments, more options, a real sense of empire, an army system, statistics galore, EXTREME moddability....::shakes head:: I can't for the life of me explain my hesitancy where this game is concerned, but I know I'll be making up for some serious lost time now that I have it! 
-=Vel=-
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Locutus
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ACS CTP1/2 Manager & Civ4 Co-Manager
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Hengelo, The Netherlands
Nov 1999
time: 06:22
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Some more elaborate comments:
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Originally posted by Velociryx
Ohhhh man! I cannot believe I have been missing out on this GEM of a game for so long! |
We hate to say 'we told you so' but uhm... we told you so!
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Even in its unmodded form, I discovered a game with a beautiful, intuitive interface |
Hmm, I'm not a big fan of the interface myself (the messagetab is really annoying - CtP1's system was so much better - and there are generally too many tabs), but glad to see someone likes it...
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(a good thing, since my copy did not come with a bound manual....some digging revealed a wordpad manual in a sub-folder tho, which was invaluable). |
That *is* the manual. The only difference with the paper version is that the paper version has some (black&white) pictures included to make it look thicker. It's useful for learning how to move units around and how to set a trade route, but other than that it's completely useless 
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The first thing I was struck by was how much sense Public Works made....I really like that system. |
Right on!
quote:
Second was the STAGGERING array of stats at your fingertips. Admittedly, this was, at first glance, an overwhelming amount of information, but I think it primarily felt that way because other games in this same genre (Civ3), don't even come CLOSE to providing that level of information! Having all that available really made me feel as though I was managing an EMPIRE, and not a collection of city states. Very good stuff. |
Yes, although unfortunately there are no stats a la Civ1/2/3's demographics, CtP2 is a much deeper game than the vanilla series, with much more variables to take into consideration 
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The game also had an inescapable epic look and feel to it, right from the first turn. There was a genuine sense of discovery from the get-go, and (granted, I'm still in the BC era....1300something), I don't see any signs of letup. |
quote:
Diplomatic options were more robust...another plus, and I like the army system, tho at first glance, my sense is that it makes ranged attack units too powerful (I chose the Scots for my first game, wound up on the same continent as the Zulu, who attacked me unprovoked, taking the city of Stirling--which I got free, btw, thanks to a "goody thingy"--....I responded with two "armies" consisting of two Hoplites and two Archers (also free from goody hut thingys), and dismantled their empire without losing a soul. |
The main reason for that is not necessarily because ranged attack is too powerful (although it *is* powerful, that's just a matter of balancing), but because the major problem of unmodded CtP2 is that the AI s*cks. All the extra units and concepts that mods like Cradle and MedMod offer are nice, but more than anything CtP2 needed better AI. That's why many people have recommended you to try the Apolyton Pack as first mod. It leaves most of the original game intact and only fixes the behaviour of the AI and diplomacy (which are two sides of the same coin, really).
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I LOVE the...groping for the correct term....the historical events that provide wonder-like effects. It made the recapture of Stirling truly FEEL like a proud moment in the history of our empire (and likewise when we circimnavigated the globe...the only two I have recieved thus far). |
Yeah, those Feats of Wonders, as they are called, are fun. Although, the ones you already saw are also the most interesting ones. There's a whole bunch of Feats for building x Arenas or being the first to research Gunpowder, which are kind of nice but not as fun as recapturing a city or circumnavigating the world...
But the game is very moddable, so if you have good ideas for more of these Feats, we'd love to hear 'em...
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Seems like around every corner, and inside every nook and cranny of the game, there's some new, wonderful secret to discover. I can honestly say that Civ3 NEVER gave me that feeling. Very definitely, there's a sense of excitement in the early game of Civ3, but that's not what I'm talking about.
This game is *wonderful!* |
That's great to hear
Yes, CtP2 does indeed have many interesting new features such as PW, stacked combat, pirating, slavery, unconventional warfare, feats of wonder, MAD, undersea cities, etc. This in contrast with Civ3, which is basically just Civ2 with strategic resources and culture. Of course, this thrill of discovery will eventually wear off and you will probably start disliking the inbalanced gameplay, the poor AI, etc - but this is where the mods come in But it's good to see you're enjoying yourself so far
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The only negative comment I have so far is....what's up with the undead-looking elephant? LOL |
LOL, I dunno but it's good to see you apparently already discovered the Alexander the Great scenario A great piece of work by Harlan, by many described as a game in itself (but that's no surprise, with Harlan as author).
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But...one thing I noticed was that the strategy section was a little slim.... |
Talk about an understatement. We have no strategy section to speak off
Of course, there's always the offical strategy guide, but I don't advise anyone to bother with that: more than half of it is devoted to giving you fascinating insights on the historic background and cultural value of all the advances and wonders and stuff in the game. And an entire chapter is devoted to discussing the morality of using a concept like slavery in a game like CtP2. Oh yeah, here and there they devote one or two sentences to giving advice on how to play the game as well  - it's just too bad most of that advice makes no sense whatsoever
As far as Apolyton Strategy goes, most of us who would be capable of writing strategy stuff are too busy changing the strategies, by making mods The rest is discouraged from writing down anything meaningful strategy-related by the fact that most strategies are only valid for one mods and at present there's at least half a dozen good mods/mod-combo's to consider...
Although there's an occasional thread devoted to strategy (HuangShuang's Tactics Database, that good old 'Science vs Commerce' thread that I linked to from the FAQ), there's nothing here that can be compared with the great things you did with SMAC and Civ3 (and perhaps others games as well). So any thoughts you may have on strategy are more than welcome...
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Velociryx
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of Candle'Bre
Apr 1999
time: 05:22
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More specifics and stuff:
Haven't played the scenarios yet, but that's high on the list....the elephant I was referring to is the one representing the 'Ivory' good? I dunno....I didn't even recognize what it was at first....just looked kinna...sickly or undead? LOL
The tabs: I agree...there are a wampum lot of them, but my perspective on them comes direct from civ3...after you get a goodish number of techs under your belt and you have a ton and a half of different things you can build, you're beset by a single, almost endless list of things in civ3....with the tabs created along logical divisions (units, buildings, wonders), it keeps the lists shorter and more directed...that's good stuff!
And the more I think about it, the more I really get into the whole idea of Public Works....that's just simply a suberb MM tool, and a great way to handle terraforming and general improvements. Some good thinking there! It, along with the notions having a variety of ways of impacting empire-wide productivity (wages, rations, length of work day), REALLY lend to the feel of being at the helm of an EMPIRE. In Civ3, you find yourself controlling several city-states that really don't have anything in common, other than sharing the same "color" of their cultural border.
I like the way trade routes are used as well....tho I have not actually built one yet (first one is scheduled for completion in 5 turns, when I return home from work this evening)....still, having to do *something* for that added economic benefit is really sweet. (Now, if it's possible via modding to tie certain unit types to the presence of certain goods, we're REALLY in business, but again, I've not played enough to know that).
As to the rest....I've been makin' notes to myself as I play and learn the ropes of the CTP2 system, and as such, I think I'd be in pretty good shape to at least make a beginning re: a newbie's guide to a few things. The more advanced stuff will, of course, have to wait till I get a good many more games under my belt, but I really like what I see so far.
And did someone say they have wonder movies in this game? :: cackling gleefully if it's true! ::
-=Vel=-
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Locutus
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ACS CTP1/2 Manager & Civ4 Co-Manager
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Hengelo, The Netherlands
Nov 1999
time: 06:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Velociryx
Haven't played the scenarios yet, but that's high on the list....the elephant I was referring to is the one representing the 'Ivory' good? I dunno....I didn't even recognize what it was at first....just looked kinna...sickly or undead? LOL |
D'oh! Forgot about that one... Yeah, I suppose that one is rather bland...
quote:
The tabs: I agree...there are a wampum lot of them, but my perspective on them comes direct from civ3...after you get a goodish number of techs under your belt and you have a ton and a half of different things you can build, you're beset by a single, almost endless list of things in civ3....with the tabs created along logical divisions (units, buildings, wonders), it keeps the lists shorter and more directed...that's good stuff! |
Ah, true, in essence tabs aren't bad (CtP1 had lots of tabs too but I loved that UI - would trade it in for CtP2's UI any day) and in the build manager they are most useful, but particularly the city manager (F3 key) is very poorly designed - all that info could easily have been fitted on one or two tabs, rather than 5.
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And the more I think about it, the more I really get into the whole idea of Public Works....that's just simply a suberb MM tool, and a great way to handle terraforming and general improvements. Some good thinking there! It, along with the notions having a variety of ways of impacting empire-wide productivity (wages, rations, length of work day), REALLY lend to the feel of being at the helm of an EMPIRE. In Civ3, you find yourself controlling several city-states that really don't have anything in common, other than sharing the same "color" of their cultural border. |
Yes, I agree, the city vs empire thing is probably the most important difference between CtP and Civ. This plus all the new features it offers make that it's IMHO by far the best Civ game out there, Civ3 ain't even in the same league...
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(Now, if it's possible via modding to tie certain unit types to the presence of certain goods, we're REALLY in business, but again, I've not played enough to know that). |
In essence it's really easy to make units dependent on goods but we modmakers are ambitious and want to add the diplomacy and colony part of strategic resources as Civ3 has it as well as well. That is a lot harder to do, but we're working on a bunch of different approaches in the Creation forum.
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As to the rest....I've been makin' notes to myself as I play and learn the ropes of the CTP2 system, and as such, I think I'd be in pretty good shape to at least make a beginning re: a newbie's guide to a few things. The more advanced stuff will, of course, have to wait till I get a good many more games under my belt, but I really like what I see so far. |
Seeing how little stuff we currently have in this area, the newbie guide alone would already be very much appreciated - more advanced stuff would be the icing on the cake
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And did someone say they have wonder movies in this game? :: cackling gleefully if it's true! :: |
Yup They're not spectacular by any means but they're there
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Turambar
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England
Apr 2002
time: 05:22
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quote:
3) Does the 'poly mod available right here come with the activision patch, or should I dl and install it first? |
You need to get the patch seperately and then should download modswapper.
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besides, I'd have to learn everything you guys already know, which would take months |
I read a guide to SLIC and was able to start modding stuff after a couple of hours exploring all the files etc. Though I don't know anywhere near enough as everyone else at the moment.
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