23-09-2002 21:14									#1
	The Persian Iron Puzzle Enter the AD-FREE zone

So. The Persians have Iron. What are we going to do about it?

First, how can we tell that they have Iron? Well, in the Diplo screen, the "Iron" option does not show up in the screen, meaning that they do not need it. Also, our Military guy tells us they have Iron-specific units (see below).

Second, why should we do something about it? It has been said before, but I'll repeat: with Iron, Persia can build Immortals. Oh yeah, and Pikemen.

What is there to be done? To answer this: ask the question: where do they get it from? Assuming that the Iron source near Antioch has not been connected yet, the only option is trade.

We can't see any anchor symbols in their cities (we should see them even when our map is outdated - see for example the Roman city of Pompeii). So - no harbo(u)rs.

The trade screen shows that they have deals with England and Germany, and possible deals with France, Rome and Greece.
To conduct a trade, the capitols must be connected through non-enemy territory. The only way they would be able to pull this off, is:

1) Connection Persia - England
2) Connection England - Germany
3) Connection Germany - Greece
4) Connection Greece - France
5) Connection France - Rome

ad 1) There are two possible/existing roads:
1a) connection Persepolis-Tarsus-Oxford-Arbela-Hastings
1b) connection Persepolis-Arbela via the lands east of Pasargadae, then to Hastings

If 1a) does not exist (i.e. Oxford is not connected), we can destroy this option easily by pillaging a piece of 1b)'s road ..!

ad 2) Probably between Brighton and Nuremberg.

ad 3) Probably between Cologne and Ephesus.

ad 4) Sparta - Lyons probably, but not via Macross territories.

ad 5) Euh... Djion - Brundisium ?? Quite a long way. Maybe via some Russian cities.


Interesting point: The Persians cannot trade with the Aztecs, with Russia or the Iroquois. There seem to be no roads to connect their capitols OR they have nothing to trade to each other.


I'll repeat:
If Oxford is not connected, we can destroy their trade by pillaging a piece of road somewhere east of Pasargadae.


Thank you for your attention. Please feel free to comment on this puzzle.

	23-09-2002 23:04									#2
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I am plannign on pillaging that road, if the east route is the one, well thats a different matter and if ther capital get islotated and they still get iron I call shenanigans on the AI.
Aggie

	24-09-2002 01:40									#3
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Good work on that Big Furry Monster! When I play Civ3, I don't think I've *ever* gone to the trouble to see which individual *roads* the AI was using for its trade routes as a component of strategy... I guess this is one of the many ways it helps to have 20-50 people putting their brains together on 5 turn sequences at a time for playing the game, eh?

	24-09-2002 04:09									#4
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quote: Originally posted by Arnelos When I play Civ3, I don't think I've *ever* gone to the trouble to see which individual *roads* the AI was using for its trade routes as a component of strategy...

Depending on the strategy you are using, it becomes necessary.
I have spent numerous moments (seems like hours) scheming on how I was going to get that last bit of road connecting their capitol to rubber so the AI couldn't draft and rush infantry.

Capitol Isolation dictates it as a strategy.

That is the nice things about nukes. It only takes one to compleatly isolate a capitol and piss off all its trading partners because the AI civ can no longer trade what it said it would.

Mss

	24-09-2002 05:06									#5
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They could have had a new source pop up as well. This source may be under one of their cities if that happened.

Has anyone (I am not at home ATM) checked the map using the Control Shift M option and looking at Persia's territory to see if there are Iron deposits that may be connected that way? Also, if the Iron popped up outside a city and we don't have a current map of Persia, then we wouldn't know about it.

	24-09-2002 05:20									#6
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I found them, they were there all the time, it's just that they speak German.

Look, we may be at war with Persia. But German merchants have friends within our troops, they let said German merchants pass trough our territory freely. This way, German merchants can travel trough Napoleton, to Geofront, where they take the Tyrean interstate and enter Persian territory.

Now that we know what the problem is, we have 2 choices:

1- We command our troops to not allow a single German merchant to go trough our territory. This would mean a hostile stance towards Germany and would involve a declaration of war against Germany.

2- We ask one of the German commanders in charge of our troops to make a blockade (pillage road), now that they happen to be located strategically to perform such operation.

Now, in the satelite picture, we can see that Colonel Faul von Stadt is currently garrisoned at Napoleton, he has the posibility leave his position and head south in a short expedition to cut the road outside napoleton. (going north requires crossing a river). And, the other option (which I think is better) is to ask Major Eisen Mann von DSchungel to stay at his position and set up the blockade. This way German merchants wont be able to pass trough our territory, and since our territory is their only way into Persia, the trade route will be efectively cut.

Edit:

We still have 11 turns of Dyes selling to the Germans, so we might just not want to cut our route to the Germans, this means, I am sorry to say, that in order to cut the route of fine german iron to Persia we will have to cut down a segment of the TYREAN INTERSTATE HIGHWAY!. Luckyly, we have some workers nearby to rebuild it...

Attachment: piron.jpg
This has been downloaded 119 time(s).

Last edited by XOR on 24-09-2002 at 05:36

	24-09-2002 05:34									#7
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Unfortunately, we will also be violating our trade agreement with Germany (dyes for 6 gpt IIRC).

	24-09-2002 05:40									#8
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in the most recent save, persia has no active trade w/ germany, nor a potential route. In addition You can't trade thru an empire that your warring with. It doesnt work like that.

Solution: England and Persia is conducting a trade, England is connected to Persia. (Arbela) Cut off one tile of road near Pasagarde, and Persians will still have iron but most of the cities in the empire won't.

btw, lets just keep one threa pertaining to iron alive... which one shall it be? this one or Our spies report Persia has iron! ???? it will get annoying posting same info twice.

Last edited by Zero on 24-09-2002 at 05:46

	24-09-2002 06:27									#9
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See part 3 of 4 of my report in this thread http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=62238 for some interesting things.

E_T

	24-09-2002 07:51									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Calc II in the most recent save, persia has no active trade w/ germany, nor a potential route. In addition You can't trade thru an empire that your warring with. It doesnt work like that.

Calc II, they have active trades with Germany. This screenshot is from the last save:

	24-09-2002 11:54									#11
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quote: Originally posted by E_T See part 3 of 4 of my report in this thread http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=62238 for some interesting things. E_T

I checked out your report. Then, I checked out the map using Control Shift M. The reason I asked for a Control Shift M was because it would show the resources available to each civ. I would encourage more people to use such a trick in situations like this. Because:


The English only have one source of Iron, connected; the Germans have two, both connected. Persia has none; there is an unconnected one outside their borders.

The English probably aren't trading any Iron to Persia, unless they are trading their only source of it, which I seriously don't believe, and the advisor shows they have Swordsman so they have been using their only source of iron. I don't know if they (Persia) are getting it from Germany or not, but they are getting it from someone somehow.

	25-09-2002 00:44									#12
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Look, I tested it, when I cut a piece to the Tyrean interestate highway and enter the peace negotiation screen with persia it will say persia no longer has any iron.

So it is confirmed, it IS the Germans, selling Iron to the Persians trough OUR roads.

	25-09-2002 00:48									#13
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quote: Originally posted by XOR Look, I tested it, when I cut a piece to the Tyrean interestate highway and enter the peace negotiation screen with persia it will say persia no longer has any iron. So it is confirmed, it IS the Germans, selling Iron to the Persians trough OUR roads.

Not sure if that was legal, but if this is the case then let's kill a road so they don't have immortals.

Question is, do we cut off connection to Germany or Persia?

	25-09-2002 00:57									#14
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quote: Originally posted by XOR Look, I tested it, when I cut a piece to the Tyrean interestate highway and enter the peace negotiation screen with persia it will say persia no longer has any iron. So it is confirmed, it IS the Germans, selling Iron to the Persians trough OUR roads.

Hmm... XOR, did I understood it correctly? Are you playing ahead?

	25-09-2002 00:57									#15
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quote: Originally posted by =OttomusCeasar= Not sure if that was legal, but if this is the case then let's kill a road so they don't have immortals. Question is, do we cut off connection to Germany or Persia?

Heh, I dont think I "played ahead" on a non-latest game in which all I did was cut one piece of road and watch the foreign advisor screen to confirm the no longer had iron.

	25-09-2002 01:19									#16
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If you cut a piece of road, you can't "un-cut" it back. THIS is playing ahead. You can't do anything if you can't go back. Not your fault, I presume, but we can't do this. Btw, IMO, someone (who speaks English better than I do ) needs to post a thread (topped, if possible) explaining all about playing ahead.

Edit:

quote: Originally posted by XOR Heh, I dont think I "played ahead" on a non-latest game in which all I did was cut one piece of road and watch the foreign advisor screen to confirm the no longer had iron.

You said "a non-latest game", and our rules aren't very clear about this. IMHO, this is "playing ahead", even in a recent (not the last) saved game. I can be wrong, of course. Nevertheless, this doesn’t seems fair.

	25-09-2002 01:37									#17
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Ooops, heheh. K, Wont do again. Sorry

Optionally, we might just, errr... cut the piece of road and that would not be playing ahead, just underling initiative :P the piece of road I tested with was the one on grassland, next to Tyre, where the horseman is in the picture.

Also, I think a good explanation of how trade works would be in place. Since the 1.29 patch I havent been able to ask for luxuries or resources in peace negotiations and there are also some weird things such us we letting the AI trade with another AI we are at war with.

One thing is that there dont need to be triple palace connections, just roads, airports and harbors, you dont need to own all the roads.

Q: Can you use another civ's harbors/airports if you are at peace with them?

Q: Can you trade trough the land of someone you are at war with to trade with someone you are at peace with? It seems to be so. And this could mean that of you are surrounded by someone you are at war with you can still trade with any civ that both warring civs are at peace with.

Q: Is this (prev question) affected by some tech? like, Nationalism?

Q: What the *.* is up with the trade routes being so complicated?

Last edited by XOR on 25-09-2002 at 01:42

	25-09-2002 01:48									#18
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This damn trade deal between Persians and (probably) Germans is annoying, indeed.
Two possibilities:
1- Our maps are outdated.
2- They are trading using OUR territory.

About the last one, many people here are saying that is impossible, so I think the option "1" is the answer.

	25-09-2002 02:18									#19
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ok i realize that Germany was not in the trade screen when I was checking for possible routes... My mistake. How do I get germany on trade screen?

	25-09-2002 02:31									#20
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"Ctrl + Shift" and right-click over any leader... IIRC. I don't have the game rigth now.

	25-09-2002 03:17									#21
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Where is the last save, BTW?

	25-09-2002 03:20									#22
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Let this be known throughout the land of Apolytonia: it is possible to trade through enemy territory (tested and verified).

Last edited by Shiber on 25-09-2002 at 03:28

	25-09-2002 03:22									#23
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here .
Look for a file named "cheops.sav".

	25-09-2002 03:25									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Shiber Aro, you can trade through enemy territory (tested and verified).

Aha! I knew it! Was my first suggestion...
Thanks, Shiber.

	25-09-2002 03:40									#25
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You're welcome.

	25-09-2002 04:43									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Shiber Let this be known throughout the land of Apolytonia: it is possible to trade through enemy territory (tested and verified).

This means that, to no doubt, even if the trade route is not passing trough our territory, our territory IS a viable trade connection that will carry anything from Germany to Persia if other routes to Persia (such as England) are cut.

	25-09-2002 14:11									#27
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Q: Will our roads only carry things from Germany to Persia, or also from Persia to Germany?

I think it's a one-way street, because we're at war with the Persians. The Persian merchant would have to turn back at the border, but the German guy can deliver his goods all the way.

	25-09-2002 17:31									#28
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quote: Originally posted by BigFurryMonster Q: Will our roads only carry things from Germany to Persia, or also from Persia to Germany? I think it's a one-way street, because we're at war with the Persians. The Persian merchant would have to turn back at the border, but the German guy can deliver his goods all the way.

From the manual:

quote: There’s one big caveat about roads. If you are at war with another civilization, any road that passes through your enemy’s territory (inside his or her borders) can’t be used for the transfer of resources and luxuries. This is not true of peaceful rivals, only those nations with which you are at war. Portions of your trade network can be disconnected by this effect, so be careful and set up alternate routes if possible.

I think that as long as we are at peace with one of the 2, our roads will "connect" them. By the way trade works it probably puts them in "connected status", meaning it's a 2 way street.

I think it would be about time the trade system was redone... and it's not like it can be done with the editor... unless they give us some code and we could probably use the MS Visual C++ editor Well, it isnt quite working the way it should, but at least we now know how it works so we are going to have to cut our own piece of road and see if it is or not the only route.