26-09-2002 06:59									#1
	Why weren't troops upgraded Increase the size of your Attachments

In my orders were orders to upgrade chariots to knights and horsemen to knights. These orders weren't carried out,leading directly to the lose of many swordsmen and additionally leaving in a position where the enemy can inflict damage. Why was this error made.
Aggie

	26-09-2002 07:05									#2
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I apologize aggie, I was supposed to make sure that your orders are carried out but I kept getting disconnected (I have background noise in my phone line and this often interrupts the connection) and I couldn't follow the game at times.

	26-09-2002 07:09									#3
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Why did that fall to you? They were written orders, and could have easily been followed by our executives.

	26-09-2002 07:11									#4
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Shiber you did nothing wrong, the purpose of the smc or a person appointed is to react, things that are in the orders are simply carried out.
Aggie

	26-09-2002 07:11									#5
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Unortho... apparently the new government isn't as efficient as yours and mine was. tsk tsk tsk

lol, just kidding for that rib of course

but this is a very unfortunate event. why?
why?!

	26-09-2002 07:11									#6
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I feel that this last turnchat, despite its successes, was an organizational failure. The fact that turns would be played was not made clear, and for some reason, the standard five turns were increased, what, 7? why?

aggie's orders were left out, and mine weren't received b/c i didnt know these turns were going to be played so soon (and so many)... mmm. its all good, but i hope this doesnt become a habit.

	26-09-2002 07:17									#7
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I could sit and complain, but that will serve no purpose.

Would it aid this administration if I compiled orders ala my administration? I will ONLY if you want it done AND NO ONE ELSE can do it.

I would pefer not to, but shoud it be needed...

	26-09-2002 07:33									#8
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A strange thing is happening with the last save... In the military advisor screen, there's no option to upgrade the war chariots. All cities have barracks, all connected, the WC's have movement points... What could be happening? The same with the save 370… But in the 350, it’s possible!
Could someone with those saves make a test?

The war chariot in the image is in BHQ:

Attachment: wc2.jpg
This has been downloaded 97 time(s).

	26-09-2002 07:33									#9
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I think it would be very helpful, and I step forward to offer my help if the government feels that compiling the orders in such a way would be beneficial.

	26-09-2002 07:36									#10
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Another example (in Willsbury):
See the buttons: the upgrade option isn't there!

Edit: the image was removed, it’s not necessary anymore..
The image in my post above will remains as a proof of my stupidity.

Last edited by Aro on 26-09-2002 at 08:09

	26-09-2002 07:43									#11
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quote: Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx I could sit and complain, but that will serve no purpose. Would it aid this administration if I compiled orders ala my administration? I will ONLY if you want it done AND NO ONE ELSE can do it. I would pefer not to, but shoud it be needed...

UnOrthO, was very easy follow the orders when you was making the compilation. Anyone was able to understand, even me!
IMO, this REALLY can help.

Edit: I'm very sorry for the excessive use of the "was" ( I can do much better in Portuguese, I swear on my life! ). I just don't know how to write the phrase in another way!
I really need to learn English.

	26-09-2002 07:45									#12
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Will this be unsolved mystery part II that will plague our minds just as part I (persia has iron) episode did for sooo long?

	26-09-2002 07:56									#13
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The reason the WC can't upgrade is because we do not have enough gold to upgrade them.

	26-09-2002 07:59									#14
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Now as I calm down ,I we say that part of the blame is mine. I rushed the chat and then due to unforeseen circumstances couldn't be there.
Aggie

	26-09-2002 07:59									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Calc II Will this be unsolved mystery part II that will plague our minds just as part I (persia has iron) episode did for sooo long?

Strange things are happening. Are the evil Persians poisoning our water with a hallucinogenic substance, or what?

	26-09-2002 08:01									#16
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quote: Originally posted by GhengisFarb The reason the WC can't upgrade is because we do not have enough gold to upgrade them.

Oh, that is... Sorry to be so stupid.

	26-09-2002 08:02									#17
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Question, where did the 80+ gold a turn go, even between the 370 save and this one we had 70+ in 370 and now we have 93. TYhat isn't 80+ a turn. The rest had to be spent, so where did it go.
Aggie

	26-09-2002 08:08									#18
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A temple was rushed at the end of last turn. That is all I know. It only took something like 72 though.

	26-09-2002 09:21									#19
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I posted this mini-tactical map here (well, it's just a screenshot with some text) because I'm sure that Aggie (and everyone else ) will see it.
Bactra seems to be a tough target: it's in a hill, pop 5... and we need that incense! Not to mention the two immortals and the archer near Persepolis (not a problem, at all).

Attachment: minitacticalmap380ad03.jpg
This has been downloaded 80 time(s).

	26-09-2002 09:31									#20
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I can certainly attest that this was a horribly disorganized turnchat, I don't feel it's really OPD's fault. Everyone in the room was constantly talking to him, or each other, and constantly reasking the same questions throughout the grueling five hour process. Then there was the constant arguing over each and every order.

The troops being upgraded or not was really a function of having enough cash on hand, as far as I know. Each upgrade cost 100g.

I recall OPD upgrading three knights during the chat, and there may have been more, but three is all I remember in the midst of all the spam. I think the main problem wasn't that he was ignoring the order ... it was that by the time it came to DOING that order in the chat, there wasn't enough gold for substantial upgrades, and he was trying to keep enough gold around for Theology.

As for where the money went, I spent 66g on an embassy, and we spent a couple hundred on Theology.

--Togas

	26-09-2002 10:04									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Togas I can certainly attest that this was a horribly disorganized turnchat, I don't feel it's really OPD's fault. Everyone in the room was constantly talking to him, or each other, and constantly reasking the same questions throughout the grueling five hour process. Then there was the constant arguing over each and every order. --Togas

Not me! I did my spam with GePap and Mr.WIA in the Dalnet.
Btw, I agree with Togas. We need some spam for fun, of course, but not SO much, as we had in the chat.
About arguing orders, I have to admit, some of us were sometimes overactive defending points of view… However, I think this is a consequence of a natural enthusiasm and creativity. The Minister’s room can be used to avoid that kind of disorganization.

	26-09-2002 15:08									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Aro I really need to learn English.

Don't cry Aro, mine is even worse

	26-09-2002 16:17									#23
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I don't think our spam-related problems can be resolved easily. I've tried looking into enforced solutions to this problem and this is what I got so far:

* Moderation: the channel can be made a moderated channel, and be demoderated once in every given amount of time for a given amount of time and then become moderated again. In essence, we are effectively declaring 'Non-ministers can now speak' periods and 'Only ministers can now speak' periods.
However, this is likely to cause a different problem: instead of talking in the channel, people will send their requests and questions to the ministers and the president in private messages, resulting in even more difficulties and spam for the executive branch.

* Limiting the number of lines: we could try to find a chat platform that will allow us to limit the amount of sentences that people can say per minute. That way people will think twice before they say something in order to conserve their bank of sentences per minute, and will try not to repeat each other either. With less spam and less repetetiveness, participants will also listen to each other better.
However, I am unaware of any chat platforms that include this handy feature.

	26-09-2002 16:32									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Shiber I don't think our spam-related problems can be resolved easily. I've tried looking into enforced solutions to this problem and this is what I got so far: * Moderation: the channel can be made a moderated channel, and be demoderated once in every given amount of time for a given amount of time and then become moderated again. In essence, we are effectively declaring 'Non-ministers can now speak' periods and 'Only ministers can now speak' periods. However, this is likely to cause a different problem: instead of talking in the channel, people will send their requests and questions to the ministers and the president in private messages, resulting in even more difficulties and spam for the executive branch.

This is an option if the ministers simply ignore any private messages.
Ignoring can even be done automatically by the chat client (like mIRC) so the messages don't even appear on screen.

quote: * Limiting the number of lines: we could try to find a chat platform that will allow us to limit the amount of sentences that people can say per minute. That way people will think twice before they say something in order to conserve their bank of sentences per minute, and will try not to repeat each other either. With less spam and less repetetiveness, participants will also listen to each other better. However, I am unaware of any chat platforms that include this handy feature.

This too can be enforced on IRC. All you need is a bot or script that kicks people when they exceed their quota. Of course only a channel operator can do this.
Ignoring private messages would also be necessary in this scenario.

So silence can be enforced, but I think it would be better if people had the discipline to limit the amount of irrelevant chatter themselves.

	26-09-2002 17:00									#25
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You all realize that none of the purchases made were cleared with the Ministry of the Economy. I'm not on a power trip but this really displeases me. Three units were upgraded... a temple was rushed?? Mmm no one ran that by me. Not cool.

You shall all be punished by way of docking your pay for the next term!

J/k, but seriously, I'm going to take the expenditures during this turnchat into account for the next; i.e. some of you that got more than you should have this turn, may get less next.

	26-09-2002 17:08									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Togas I can certainly attest that this was a horribly disorganized turnchat, I don't feel it's really OPD's fault. Everyone in the room was constantly talking to him, or each other, and constantly reasking the same questions throughout the grueling five hour process. Then there was the constant arguing over each and every order.

Hmmm. Sounds familiar.....

Let's not condemn OPD too much here - I didn't see more than 5 mins of the chat, but the first time I turned up I was so lagged I saw everyone's names but nothing was happening. I left and reentered. Upon saying basically "Yay I am finally here!", I believe I am accused of spamming. How was I to know what was going on, that we were supposed to just shut up? Isn't that why there was a Civ3demMinisters room set up? During my term, we discussed using it once or twice when some thought the spam was too much, but I said no need - it could be handled. Was this room used? And if so, is it this room that had spam in it? If not, there shouldn't have been a problem.

Let's make this work - the whole point of turnchats is so the public can get onvolved too - if you are annoyed with this, then let's just stop the chats. Or would this create more annoyance than having a few extra people there would?

	26-09-2002 17:21									#27
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I had hoped we could have sorted this out in private aggie.

Last edited by OPD on 26-09-2002 at 18:11

	26-09-2002 18:30									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Aggie Question, where did the 80+ gold a turn go, even between the 370 save and this one we had 70+ in 370 and now we have 93. TYhat isn't 80+ a turn. The rest had to be spent, so where did it go. Aggie

They also rushed a temple for me, though I don't know the final cost of that. It was 96 in 310, rushed in 370. How much is it per shield? subtract that ammount * 6 to get the cost...

I submitted that request in both my orders and to Reddawg, and explained to Reddawg that I understood that Military should come first, though if the budget allowed I gave him a wish list, and that was #1 on it.

	26-09-2002 19:21									#29
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In future if a situation like this arises again I request that ministers contact me by PM rather than starting threads like this which undermine me.

Why weren't all the WC's upgraded?

Because the order to upgrade them wasn't given.


Here are the minister orders

Here is quote from the constitution

Minister of the Military:
This officer is the principal military advisor to the President and the people, and prepares military plans and reviews overall military requirements for our nation. He/She also has the responsibility to assess threats to the security of the country and keep everyone up to date on these threats.

The Military Advisor is granted the power to set up the army's strategy. He tells what troops to move where, and which battles to engage.

The Military Advisor is granted the right to take an active part in negotiations of Peace Treaties, Mutual Protection Pacts, or a Right of Passage agreements. (Note: The Foreign Advisor calls the shots, but the Military Advisor must have his voice heard).

Can someone please tell me where in here it says that the SMC decides whether or not to upgrade millitary units.

	26-09-2002 19:52									#30
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OK.

We are all a bit edgy here. OPD. I reacted in a similar manner when people questioned anything I did. I fully understand, but trust me, it accomplishes nothing.

Now, lets not bring the CoL into this because we all know that it has enough holes in it that we are tossing it out, and created the Constitutional Convention to rewrite the thing. The fact is that it does not cover either rushing or upgrading anywhere within.

Let's try and turn this into a constructive effort, however, rather than pointing fingers.

We don't NEED to wait for the CC. Let's make an amendment. Or rather two.

First one.

The Minister of Economy is granted the power to decide all military upgrades and rushes within a city, be they pop rushing, or cash. The Minister of Military and City Planner can each petition and advise the MoE on which are more needed in their respective fields.

This can be worded better, but there you have it. Any suggestions on that one. (I will likely be making one or two posts for these.)

Second.

Great Leaders.

Great Leaders will be used based on the consensus of the City Planner, Military Minister, and Executive Branch. These officials are strongly recommended to poll the public to determine their desires.

Again, wording is not my thing, improvements? Did not say based on official poll because that would require a week. 3 days discussion, 3 days poll minimum.