07-10-2002 21:57									#31
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Just quiz Spink on whatever his parents did. Then do the opposite.

	08-10-2002 03:17									#32
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If professionals had more kids we'd end up with more stupid teenage depression threads.

	08-10-2002 03:22									#33
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quote: Originally posted by rah Thanks, for the clarification Flubber, yes you are correct, I didn't mean to make it sound like a generalization. Especially since both my wife and I are professionals that work a lot of hours, yet believe that we have done a good job raising our daughter. On the other hand, we never had a second child because we were worried about the extra amount of time and money and whether we'd have enough of either. If someone sees that as selfish, they can kiss my ***.

I certainly don't see that as selfish, but just as another symptom of modern society. As Marx himself said (surely will get a bite from the right wingers here ), capitalism reduces everything down to a financial relationship, even the family. All this carrot dangling of the career ladder seems a bit false and contrived to me, but everyone seems to fall for it.

	08-10-2002 03:49									#34
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'For your career' is just a convenient excuse. Those who don't have kids and cite this excuse, simply don't want kids. And if you don't want kids, you shouldn't have them, for those would be some ****ed up kids.

I don't want kids because I have enough responsibilities already, and even though I'd probably be a good parent, I don't want to take the chance that I'm not.

	08-10-2002 04:01									#35
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Why the hell do you care, Stewy?

	08-10-2002 04:38									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man 'For your career' is just a convenient excuse. Those who don't have kids and cite this excuse, simply don't want kids. And if you don't want kids, you shouldn't have them, for those would be some ****ed up kids. I don't want kids because I have enough responsibilities already, and even though I'd probably be a good parent, I don't want to take the chance that I'm not.

A sensible approach IMHO-- I have heard the opinion that people who choose not to have children are selfish-- I never could understand that-- The world would be a LOT better place if only those people who truly wanted children, had children . . .

	08-10-2002 04:42									#37
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are you not doing that Stewie?

I don't see you having children right now

Jon Miller

	08-10-2002 04:54									#38
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People who choose not to have children are not selfish. They're misguided.

	08-10-2002 04:59									#39
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I reckon we'll need to grow babies in vats before long.

	08-10-2002 05:00									#40
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Well I would hope to be a father someday, I make quite a good father figure (I am effectively that to my nephew, shame with me working nowadays I don't get to see as much of him I will have to take him swimming on Saturday )

	08-10-2002 05:00									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten People who choose not to have children are not selfish. They're misguided.

Why?

	08-10-2002 05:03									#42
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because we need more population

Jon Miller

	08-10-2002 05:04									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller because we need more population Jon Miller

Again, why?

	08-10-2002 05:08									#44
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population (and in particular, well educated and driven population) is what has made all the acheivements the world has today (this is looking at things secularly)

the more people who are born, the more people who can live happy lives, the more geniuses who will be born to advance the human race, the more artists who will be born to create new and interesting art, the more people who will have ideas and wishes which will push the human race into and beyond the 20th century

a civilization or even a nation without population increase is dying

also, the ones who are haiving the least children are the ones who can support the most, but selficiously they live in the past instead of raising children for the human race

Jon Miller

	08-10-2002 05:15									#45
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I can't agree with that. I think that there are more than enough people as it is. Overpopulation is a real issue in most nations. As for me being wealthy enough to afford kids - possibly true, but said kid would then consume more scarce resources the world doesn't have. Things like food, fuel, fresh water, combs...

But aside from all that, I'm not interested in making more people just so 'more people can live happy lives'. If I'm not happy to have a kid, that kid probably won't be happy either...

	08-10-2002 05:16									#46
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There's no logical reason for us not to let the human race go extinct.

But there's no logical reason for us to let ourselves die out, either.

But I say: Humans good, humans survive, humans spread. End of story.

	08-10-2002 05:23									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man I can't agree with that. I think that there are more than enough people as it is. Overpopulation is a real issue in most nations. As for me being wealthy enough to afford kids - possibly true, but said kid would then consume more scarce resources the world doesn't have. Things like food, fuel, fresh water, combs... But aside from all that, I'm not interested in making more people just so 'more people can live happy lives'. If I'm not happy to have a kid, that kid probably won't be happy either...

actually wrong

there is not a single nation that is over populated

there are nations which have infrastructure issues and resource allocation issues, but no nation is overpopulated

the world has plenty of resources, we waste more resources than we use currently (just becuase of resource allocation issues), we could easily have populations orders of magnitudes higher than currently without feeling it to harshly

we have plenty of all the things you mentioned, if only the old failed systems coulc be removed

my dad is not happy at all and is one of the most depressed people I know, but I am reasonalby happy, you are making excuses for your selfcenteredness

if the population of earth's major civilizations of starts declining, we will be approaching those civilizations ends

Jon Miller

	08-10-2002 05:23									#48
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What about Social Security? Boris' argument (re: public education, which is quite good) ignores the fact that a declining birthrate will mean fewer people paying the pensions of more elderly. Unless we reform the system to get into the market.

	08-10-2002 05:24									#49
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Fine, if you believe that, you go out and have lots of kids. But don't go and expect the rest of us to do the same. That's selfish, on YOUR part.

	08-10-2002 05:24									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Sandman There's no logical reason for us not to let the human race go extinct. But there's no logical reason for us to let ourselves die out, either. But I say: Humans good, humans survive, humans spread. End of story.

what are you saying?

every logical reason says that we must further our race

Jon Miller

	08-10-2002 05:25									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man Fine, if you believe that, you go out and have lots of kids. But don't go and expect the rest of us to do the same. That's selfish, on YOUR part.

how is it selfish on my part?

my kids will help make it so there will still be a civilization arround for you to enjoy when you are old (just looking selfishly at your own happiness)

Jon Miller

	08-10-2002 05:30									#52
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Logic can only tell us how, it can't tell us if we should or shouldn't.

(Edited regarding ambiguous word meanings.)

	08-10-2002 05:30									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller there are nations which have infrastructure issues and resource allocation issues, but no nation is overpopulated

Have we solved those infrastructure issues?

If not, infrastructure issues=overpopulation, to those who are living in it.

quote: my dad is not happy at all and is one of the most depressed people I know, but I am reasonalby happy, you are making excuses for your selfcenteredness

I think you're confusing a different POV with self centredness. I disagree with your view of the world, and find it incredibly offensive that I should be expected to take on a major responsibility (18+ years) with no regard to my feelings on the subject.

quote: if the population of earth's major civilizations of starts declining, we will be approaching those civilizations ends

The world's population is still expanding... what are you worried about? Civilizations have ended in the past, and new ones took their place. That's Civ... I mean, that's life.

Again, if you want kids, have 'em. Leave me out of it.

(edited to nest quotes properly and correct typo! )

	08-10-2002 05:38									#54
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the worlds population is still expanding
but in such places as to make the expansion not very useful

and you see no reason to try to keep up civilization? I don't feel like subjecting millions and billions of people to another dark age (see you are selfish)

you can at least adopt, than it is not quite 18 years

the infrastructure issues can be solved, that is my point, you just need a little less of people being selfish

Jon Miller

	08-10-2002 05:53									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller and you see no reason to try to keep up civilization? I don't feel like subjecting millions and billions of people to another dark age (see you are selfish) Jon Miller

How did we get from not having kids to the dark ages?

Frankly, a society that forces people to have children could be as bad as the Dark Ages.

Moreover... I contribute to civilization by paying taxes, maintaining friendships and family relationships, and contributing to public debate. That's my choice. Emphasis on choice.

	08-10-2002 07:09									#56
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quote: Why?

Although I completely agree with Jon Miller, I think that they are misguided for other reasons. I just don't see how anyone can feel that their career is a more important and worthy goal than bringing a life into this world. Your career means jack **** in the greater scheme of things, but children carry on your legacy and can produce untold benefits for society in the future. I just don't understand how the most basic of human instincts, the urge to procreate, has suddenly lost favor with a large part of the world's population. It's idiotic, IMO.

	08-10-2002 07:21									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller the more people who are born, the more people who can live happy lives, the more geniuses who will be born to advance the human race, the more artists who will be born to create new and interesting art, the more people who will have ideas and wishes which will push the human race into and beyond the 20th century

What a load of crap - think of the billions of people out there without even clean drinking water, a day going by without feeling hungry - or even proper shelter over their heads!!!

Until those problems can be rectified IMO, there are too many people on this planet - as it would appear to me that we do not have sufficient resources (or are too selfish!) to look after them!

All well and good that we're producing all these extra geniuses - but what if the next Einstein or Hawking has been born in say India or the Sahel of Africa, but as we speak is dying of Diarrhoea brought on by malnutrition and drinking contaminated water???

quote: and you see no reason to try to keep up civilization? I don't feel like subjecting millions and billions of people to another dark age (see you are selfish)

It's already happening through the selfish policies of the West designed to keep the rest of the World in perpetual debt and economic slavery to these so called 'civilised' countries...

quote: you can at least adopt, than it is not quite 18 years

Just like the WASP dominated racist government of Australia whose politicians are complaining that not enough babies are being born and that the nation is facing a crisis of an ever ageing population - but who then treat asylum seekers with criminal inhumanity by throwing them into concentration camps such as the Woomera detention centre!!!

THAT is selfish - there are plenty of people desperate to improve their lives by fleeing persecution (and poverty) and yet these countries that need these people close their doors because they are racist...

quote: the infrastructure issues can be solved, that is my point, you just need a little less of people being selfish Jon Miller

Well there's a f*cking understatement!!!

I mean we don't even have food, clean water, shelter or education for billions of people worldwide!!!

I think you should get down from that soft and insulated ivory tower of yours and realise that the majority of the people of this planet live in abject poverty!!!

Enough reasons have given as to why it is OK for couples to be 'selfish', after all that is what life is supposed to be about (in the Western World that is!), to have the freedom to make your own choices. As has been mentioned, I doubt a couple forced to have children would be particularly good parents anyway.

So why not turn to the third world pool of labour to solve our own problems, it seems like a win win situation to me...

Stu, I notice you're being selfish and putting your education first before becoming a 'breeder' (for which I am grateful!)...

	08-10-2002 07:23									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: Why? I just don't see how anyone can feel that their career is a more important and worthy goal than bringing a life into this world. Your career means jack **** in the greater scheme of things, but children carry on your legacy and can produce untold benefits for society in the future. I just don't understand how the most basic of human instincts, the urge to procreate, has suddenly lost favor with a large part of the world's population. It's idiotic, IMO.

As my grandmother once said (and she had 4 children, so perhaps she have some cred with you ), "It wouldn't do for all of us to like the same things."

Maybe to you, a career means jackshit. To a lot of us, adding another life to the 6 billion already on the planet means the same thing. Find your fulfilment where you can, doing what you like.

I don't need a legacy - that's just being selfish (since we're tossing that word around in this thread...)

Untold benefits... sounds to me like uncertain or unknowable benefits. Some children grow up to be inventors, some to be teachers, some to be welfare recipients, some to be axe murderers. Given that I don't necessarily think I'd be a good parent, which would mine be?

Also IMO, the urge to procreate is really just the urge to get laid...

	08-10-2002 07:27									#59
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quote: Also IMO, the urge to procreate is really just the urge to get laid...

They were one and the same for most of human history. Maybe this is the problem...

	08-10-2002 07:49									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten They were one and the same for most of human history. Maybe this is the problem...

Tell it to the Pope! I'm sure he'll agree with you re: banning birth control