11-10-2002 08:27									#271
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quote: Originally posted by CyberGnu Jaguar, if you look in the top corner of each post you can read something called 'username'. Sometimes referred to as 'handle'. You, for example, post under the username 'Jaguar Warrior'. I post under the username 'CyberGnu'. Now, when we've established what a username is and what information one can glean from it, you might want to take a look at that link you posted again. Again, I'm expecting an apology.

All right. I shouldn't argue this late at night.

Sorry.

	11-10-2002 08:27									#272
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quote: Funny thing for you to say when you used a "Well Known Arab Myth" as an argument for your ludicrous ''Israel=Fascist" theory. Could propaganda sometimes be spread in the form of a "Well known (insert nationality here) myth?"

Let's see. I made that statement in this quote:

quote: For every israeli lie there is an equivalent arab lie. Just look at this very thread. That the blue stripes on the Israeli flag represents the Jordan and the Euphrat is a well documented arab myth. Just like how palestine was deserted when the jews came is a well documented israeli myth. What comes out of slinging lies at each other? Nothing. Only by quoting honest sources can anything progress. Naturally, since these honest sources most of the time tell you that Israel commits crimes and atrocities, the chances of you acknowledging them are slim...

As far as I can tell, the conclusion Israel=Fascist does not occur anywhere in this quote.

	11-10-2002 08:28									#273
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Apology accepted.

	11-10-2002 08:29									#274
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Oh, and I'm Swedish, but I live in the States (L.A., to be exact)

	11-10-2002 08:35									#275
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Your only quote on that subject is perfectly reasonable. However, many of your statements on other subjects are not, but I won't counter them because I slandered you. (Accidentally, but still...)

	11-10-2002 09:10									#276
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Well, feel free to counter them. I don't mind.

As you might have guessed, I do mind being compared to Siro...

	11-10-2002 10:20									#277
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quote: Originally posted by CyberGnu Because Sweden was neutral. And unlike Norway and Denmark, it wasn't cost effective for Germany to invade. Your pathetic trolls don't even make sense....

BTW, Why is Sweden not part of NATO. Are you still neutral?

	11-10-2002 10:39									#278
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CyberGnu, On the issue of negotiations, I think nothing can be resolved with only the Palestinians and Israeli's at the table. The RoR issue is a broader topic than just the issues between Israel and Palestine and blocks any peace agreement until it is resolved.

I agree, that Arafat had no choice but to terminate negotiations because the RoR could not be resolved due to Israeli insistence that they also be compensated for property taken from Jewish refugees from Arab states.

This leads me to believe also that a prime motivating factor to Bush's actions against Saddam Hussein is that he, more than any other Arab, has no intention of making a peace agreement with Israel. If there is a moderate Arab regime in Bagdad, a peace agreement between the Arabs and Israel is possible.

	11-10-2002 10:41									#279
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Siro, Thanks for giving us the true story on the Gaza raid. The battle sounds very much like what happened to our Army Ranger unit in Moghadishu.

	11-10-2002 10:53									#280
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quote: Originally posted by CyberGnu Well, feel free to counter them. I don't mind. As you might have guessed, I do mind being compared to Siro...

I hope you two never meet.

	11-10-2002 11:07									#281
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Although if they did, I'd lay 2:1 odds on Siro...

	11-10-2002 11:19									#282
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Ned,

quote: BTW, Why is Sweden not part of NATO. Are you still neutral?

Yep. During the cold war it made a lot of sense. Not sure it does anymore.

quote: CyberGnu, On the issue of negotiations, I think nothing can be resolved with only the Palestinians and Israeli's at the table.

I agree completely. The US has to be there too, to put pressue on Israel and to guarantee the implementation of a treaty.

quote: I agree, that Arafat had no choice but to terminate negotiations because the RoR could not be resolved due to Israeli insistence that they also be compensated for property taken from Jewish refugees from Arab states.

Eh, do you realize what a slap in the face it is to the arabs when Israel insists that it is entitled to compensation? Israelis enjoy the highest standard of living in the ME...

As long as Israel insists on being compensated, there will be no deal. My guess is that Barak knew this very well at Camp David...

quote: This leads me to believe also that a prime motivating factor to Bush's actions against Saddam Hussein is that he, more than any other Arab, has no intention of making a peace agreement with Israel.

Well, I think the prime motivating factor for Bush has nothing to do with the people of the ME, whether jews or arabs. Iraq happens to sit on 25% of the worlds oil reserves...

quote: If there is a moderate Arab regime in Bagdad, a peace agreement between the Arabs and Israel is possible.

You think? I don't necessarily agree. Egypt has a moderate leader, but he still can't allow a deal like the one presented at Camp David, for fear of fullscale rioting.

	11-10-2002 11:20									#283
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quote: Siro, Thanks for giving us the true story on the Gaza raid.

Come on, Ned, you know better than that. The true story? Yeah, right....

	11-10-2002 11:23									#284
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quote: I hope you never meet

quote: Although if they did, I'd lay 2:1 odds on Siro...

Well, I haven't been in a fight in 15 years, and Siro is in the army, right?

Could I bet on Siro too?

	11-10-2002 11:48									#285
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The RoR issue can be solved by money. This is where the UN can step in and help. Both sides need to accept a lot less than it is demanding.

There are 3.5 million refugees. They are still largely in camps supported by the UN - this after 50+ years! Something is very strange and very wrong with this picture. Jewish refugees, in contrast, are not sitting idly in camps. They are productive citizens of Israel.

BTW, it is my understanding that Europe, including Sweden, spends several hundred million a year to support those 3.5 million refugees. The US spends about 80 million a year.

You can see, that the issue of the refugees is probably the most difficult issue to solve. It cannot be solved with only Israel and the Palestinian at the table. The other Arab countries have to take part in the solution because they have to agree to integrate the refugees into their societies and somehow compensate Israel for confiscation of Jewish property.

	11-10-2002 12:08									#286
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I hope it can be solved by money, since that seems to be the only open option, right?

And I think that Arafat can agree on a lot lower sum than the hundred of billions of dollars from the original UN assessment. But arguing that the payment should be reduced because of compensation TO israel is a slap in the face.

Because of Israels actions do millions of palestinians live in poverty. How do you think they react to Israels demand for compensation? How do you think they would react to a deal where the amount of money the refugees obtain is reduced because of this?

I think you could more easily sell a deal where palestine recieves 10 billion in a pure compensation, than one where they get 20 billion minus 5 billion in compensation, even though the total would be greater.

As it is, however, Israel categorically refuses to give more than a pittance to the ROR. Allowing 10.000 people to live in Israel is not exactly a constructive offer, when there are 3.5 million refugees.

	11-10-2002 12:20									#287
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I agree that the Pals should not accept an offset for Jewish land other Arab states confiscated. The other Arab states have to compensate Israel. One way to do this is by paying the Pals in lieu of paying Israel, i.e., assuming Israel's debt to the refugees. The payments to the refugees could be made as part of a refugee integration plan into Arab societies.

BTW, I really do not understand why there are still camps so long after the '48 war. I smell a rat here. It is almost as if the Arabs or someone were deliberately blocking Palestinian integration.

	11-10-2002 12:28									#288
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quote: Originally posted by Ned BTW, Why is Sweden not part of NATO. Are you still neutral?

We're ruled by socialists....

	11-10-2002 12:31									#289
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quote: It is almost as if the Arabs or someone were deliberately blocking Palestinian integration.

No one gives a **** about the Pals, Israeli or Arab.

Both sides are wrong in this but in many ways the Arabs seem worse to me. They claim that the Pals are their Muslim brothers, but then they continue to let the Pals live in squalid refugee camps for cynical reasons. The Pals are just a tool in the eyes of the Arab states, a tool to be used to weaken Israel. Israel's treatment of the Pals isn't any better, but at least the Pals are an enemy of Israel. The Arabs claim that the Pals are their friends, but they still continue to oppress them. With "friends" like these, who needs enemies? Unfortunately, the Pals have both...

	11-10-2002 13:41									#290
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Ned, the reason the camps are still there are both ideological and practical. On the practical level, the rulers of surrounding areas are afraid of integrating a substantial number of people with a different ethnicity. See Jordan as an example - do you realy think the king of Jordan wants MORE palestinians?

On the ideological level, it is hard to explain to the arab masses why the arab world accepts the burden of the refugees, when it is Israels actions that displaced them. See what I mean?

	11-10-2002 13:42									#291
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Alkis, are you swedish?

Drake, see my answer to Ned

	11-10-2002 14:12									#292
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quote: Originally posted by CyberGnu Alkis, are you swedish?

Ja, och nykterist ;P

	11-10-2002 15:39									#293
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quote: As for the facts:

source?

You're making it seem like it was a massive battle between some 150 Palestinians, and the IDF. This is a baseless accusation, unless you have prove to back it up (and please, no IDF or Israeli sources). No paper I read reported anything like you just did. Yes there were militants, but just a mere handful. the others that were killed or wounded, actually were innocent civilians.

	11-10-2002 17:45									#294
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quote: (and please, no IDF or Israeli sources).

Interesting, did you also choose to ignore official dutch sources when reading about serebrenika? (sp?)

Did you check non-american versions about Mogadishu?

Did you check non-american versions about the air raids on Iraq?

This is very ludicrous. You know very well that when you go to BBC to get information about American raids, you well get only the American side of the story, and on Israeli raids... they only give you the Palestinian side of the story.


My sources are the israeli media and people whom I personally know who serve in the IDF.

And in a year or some - I'm going to know for a fact what is up there too. Only I won't be able to tell you.

In any case - if you want to have a war crimes trial - bring it on!

It has come to my attention that almost every IDF action is being recorded on video, for several years now. Thus we can prove the integrity of our claims.

	11-10-2002 17:53									#295
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quote: You're making it seem like it was a massive battle between some 150 Palestinians, and the IDF

You don't need 150 palestinians to create a battlefield.


You just have to think about the following question:

What does a crowd of 100+ innocent people has to do during a battle between IDF and Hamas militants?

Wouldn't they rather... hide from the fire?

In any case - the large number of injuries was from the falling of a piece of a building's wall. My source? video shoots of the scene.

	11-10-2002 20:37									#296
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quote: Wouldn't they rather... hide from the fire? In any case - the large number of injuries was from the falling of a piece of a building's wall. My source? video shoots of the scene.

So they may have been hiding, in/near that building that collapsed.

	12-10-2002 02:09									#297
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but wouldn't they have tried to get out of the building through a door on the other side where no fighting was occurring?

	12-10-2002 02:16									#298
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: It is almost as if the Arabs or someone were deliberately blocking Palestinian integration. No one gives a **** about the Pals, Israeli or Arab. Both sides are wrong in this but in many ways the Arabs seem worse to me. They claim that the Pals are their Muslim brothers, but then they continue to let the Pals live in squalid refugee camps for cynical reasons. The Pals are just a tool in the eyes of the Arab states, a tool to be used to weaken Israel. Israel's treatment of the Pals isn't any better, but at least the Pals are an enemy of Israel. The Arabs claim that the Pals are their friends, but they still continue to oppress them. With "friends" like these, who needs enemies? Unfortunately, the Pals have both...

Damn right Drake: The neighboring Arab states, specially Syria and Lebanon treat the Palestinians horribly, as do the Gulf Sates. This is also why I never refer to the current conflict as Arab-Israeli but Israel-Palestinian. for all the hubub, the Egyptians, Saudis, Syrians, Iraqis and so forth are really barely involved- even in sending money to Hamas their influence is, as should be based on their treatment of the Pals, minimal, unlike what so many Israelis on the irght want- so that it becomes Arabs v Israel, not Palsetinians v Israel.

	12-10-2002 02:33									#299
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Well GePap, in other words, the Arabs are blocking integration of the Palestinians into their societies. How they do this? Deny citizenship/work permits/jobs/right to buy land/the right to live out of the camps? How?

	12-10-2002 05:38									#300
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Ned, they are not actually blocking intergration, they just wont actively support it.

Actively supporting intergration would entail giving away land, houses, social services etc etc to the refugees. There is, AFAIK, no practical obstacle for a refugee to settle in jordan, as long as he can afford it.

There is quite a bit of mobility in the camps, as well. People who do well move out, while poor move in. See, for example, this norwegian study:
http://www.fafo.no/ais/middeast/jor...es/AmmanRWG.pdf


This aspect has always baffled. Why is the arab world vilefied because they wont pay for Israels crimes?

Let's say that the US decides to drive all blacks over the border to Mexico. Should we not only expect Mexico to shoulder the burden of integrating them into mexican society, but even accuse Mexico of a crime if it doesn't?

It seems absurd to me...