12-10-2002 05:48									#301
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Ned Well GePap, in other words, the Arabs are blocking integration of the Palestinians into their societies. How they do this? Deny citizenship/work permits/jobs/right to buy land/the right to live out of the camps? How?

The many of the ways in which you have stated: Palestinians in Lebanon and Syria must stay in the camps, and can't become citizens. neither can the Palestinians working as migrant laborers in the Gulf States, which obviously allow them work, but little else, and actually thousands of palestinians were thrown out of the gulf states after the Gulf War. its easier for a Palestinian to become a US citzen than a lebanese citizen.

Cyber:
arab treatment of palestinians is inexcusible. it doesn't matter if they were removed from their lands by israel: they shoul have been treated better by the neihboring states, specially since these camps have become villages after 50 years, and they are squalid villages at that.

	12-10-2002 05:58									#302
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

GePap, inexcusable how? Because they won't make them citizens? I don't really know much about the camps in Syria and Lebanon, but the refugees in Jordan (which constitute about 6/7 of the 3.5 million refugees) can move around as they want. The only thing that is required is for them to be able to pay their own way...

Look, I see it somewhat like meeting a homeless person. Does it make me a bad person if I don't give him any spare change? I don't think so. It might make me a good person if I do, but I don't feel I have an obligation to do so.

	12-10-2002 06:13									#303
	Put an end to popups!

states have the obligation to provide certain services for individual in their terriroty, even non-citizens. Two generations of palestinians, at leat, have been born in Lebanon and Syrai, yet they are denied educational opportunies, work opportunies, and severely discriminated against. Jordan has, out of necesity, integrated the palestinians. The Lebanese hate the palestinians, blasme them for helping to start the civil war there, and the Syrians don't care for them much either.
To me, it is not only the shabby treatment, which is enough to condem them, but the utter hypocrasy, telling themselves they are helping the Palestinian cause while keeping them shoeless, poor and ignorant in shanty villages. Would they not further the palestinains cause even more by integrating these hard-working, capable people: making both themselves and the palestinians richer and more successful, thus making them more capable of really helping the Palestinians?

	12-10-2002 06:21									#304
	Got spare money?

With what money?

Jordan has an annual budget of $6billion. There is no money to spend on 3 million refugees! Do you have any idea how money it would take to buy land, buy houses, provide education and medical care to 3 million people?

Look, I'm essentially in the same situation as the jordanian refugees, with the (admittedly huge) difference that I can go back to Sweden at any point. But as long as I live in the US, I can get NOTHING from the US goverment. As long as I pay my own way, I'm welcome to stay. But that is as far as it goes. If I get unemplyed, the US has not obligation to help me.

I don't think that makes the US hypocritical or morally corrupt, in any sense.

	12-10-2002 06:22									#305
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

BTW, Al'kimsya, what's with the name and the flag?

	12-10-2002 13:26									#306
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by CyberGnu BTW, Al'kimsya, what's with the name and the flag?

I liked the flag, and since Papua New Guinea was the last country with cannibals my disgust of humanity found it somewhat appropriate to honor this. As for the name, it's arabic, the same word as "alchemy" and a word play on my forename.

	12-10-2002 14:24									#307
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Well, that was one of the weirdest motivations I've heard in a while...

I like it!!!!

Alchemy, huh? Into chemistry?

	12-10-2002 16:04									#308
	Suffering from ads?

quote: but wouldn't they have tried to get out of the building through a door on the other side where no fighting was occurring?

who says the fighting was just on one end? there may have been Israeli troops/choppers/tanks on the other side. Or if that wasn't the case, the Hamas may have blocked the other exit.

	12-10-2002 16:25									#309
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by CyberGnu Alchemy, huh? Into chemistry?

Not very, more an interest/fascination (whatever Mr. Spock would have said) in mysticism and the occult.

	12-10-2002 19:40									#310
	Get a bigger avatar today!

CyberGnu, your example would be more accurate if it had us driving all Puerto Ricans out of the US. Why should Latin America shoulder the burden. Well, on the one hand, becuase they claim to be insolidarity with the Palestinian people. On another hand, the Arab states are just as responsible for creating the refugee problem as Israel. If they hadn't invaded in '48, most Palestinians would be living in Israel right now (since Israel would have just conquered everything except the areas the Jordains clung onto).

The Arab states have also blocked the integration into their own societies of refugees living there. Palestinians were never allowed to get on with their lives in Jordan or Lebanon or anywhere else.

	13-10-2002 01:17									#311
	Increase the size of your Attachments

The refugee situation is simply bizzare. The world community has largely ingore the refugees for 50 years, focusing instead on evil Israeli's and the noble PLO. The UN is obviously largely responsible for the continued misery of the refugees. It should have decades ago called on the Arab nations that made war on Israel to settle the refugees in their own lands.

But, as you said, Che, this would have taken the pressure of of the evil Israelis, the pressure to punish them for being evil, for being Jews. So the UN persisted in its orginal position passed in 1948 that Israel must accept return of the refugees!

But it is easy to see, that this UN policy has prevented peace for 50 years. The UN demand would essentially destroy Israel. The UN knows this, but persists anyway. The UN is the obstacle to peace.

Why aren't more people angry about this. Why doesn't the PLO condemn the UN and the Arab nations for lack of action to improve the lot of the refugees?

Why?

	13-10-2002 03:35									#312
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Isn't it nice to ignore the fact that several thousands palestinian refugees were slaughtered by lebanese and syrians when they first arrived in 1947, 48, 49?

Isn't it nice to ignore the fact that lebanon makes things such as educations fare some 5 times greater for palestinian refugees, than for lebanese?


gepap - the palestinians (PLO to be exact) did do all they could to flare up the civil war. Infact, the PLO enjoyed it alot, and rose to power.

	13-10-2002 04:33									#313
	Support Apolyton

Chegitz,

quote: On another hand, the Arab states are just as responsible for creating the refugee problem as Israel. If they hadn't invaded in '48, most Palestinians would be living in Israel right now (since Israel would have just conquered everything except the areas the Jordains clung onto).

That example doesn't work. Look, if someone steals my wallet and break my leg giving chase, the person responsible for my broken leg is still the thief who stole my wallet in the first place.

Blaming the arab world for reacting to theft of arab land just isn't right.

As for the solidarity, you do have a point. I think the arab world has convinced itself that intergrating the refugees would be doing them a disfavor, however.

You know, just like most people who wont give a quarter to a homeless justifies it by thinking 'he would only be buying booze with it anyway'. (Myself included.) See what I mean?

	13-10-2002 04:56									#314
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: The UN is obviously largely responsible for the continued misery of the refugees.

Well, indirectly. They never opposed Israels aggression in the first place.

While I have issues with the UN, it is still the best bet we have, though...

	13-10-2002 06:03									#315
	Support Apolyton

quote: You know, just like most people who wont give a quarter to a homeless justifies it by thinking 'he would only be buying booze with it anyway'. (Myself included.) See what I mean?

Instead, a person would just shoot the homeless, to rid the world of him, like Lebanon murdered several hundred Palestinian refugees, to stop the rest from coming.

Great

	13-10-2002 06:12									#316
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by CyberGnu Chegitz, That example doesn't work. Look, if someone steals my wallet and break my leg giving chase, the person responsible for my broken leg is still the thief who stole my wallet in the first place. Blaming the arab world for reacting to theft of arab land just isn't right. As for the solidarity, you do have a point. I think the arab world has convinced itself that intergrating the refugees would be doing them a disfavor, however. You know, just like most people who wont give a quarter to a homeless justifies it by thinking 'he would only be buying booze with it anyway'. (Myself included.) See what I mean?

I actually give these folks twenty-dollar bills. To a man they are extremely thankful.

	13-10-2002 06:16									#317
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Siro, I think the Barak position on RoR and reparation was essentially correct. Each side should compensate the other for "stolen" property.

But, until then, why doesn't Israel intervene in the refugee situation and help out with their support? As well, Israel could demand that the Arab nations begin integration now. A lot of Americans would be very sympathetic to both these actions.

	13-10-2002 15:57									#318
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Instead, a person would just shoot the homeless, to rid the world of him, like Lebanon murdered several hundred Palestinian refugees, to stop the rest from coming.

Is that Sharons official policy of just your interpretation?

	13-10-2002 16:00									#319
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Ned, are you serious? You actually give every homeless $20? Where do you live?

If I did that I couldn't afford to leave my apartment anymore....

	14-10-2002 03:11									#320
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

CyberGnu, Aptos CA. Ned

	14-10-2002 06:17									#321
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

That's in the neighbourhood of San Fran, right?

I've only been there once, but I remember homeless everywhere...

I live in Pasadena. On my way to work (I walk) I usually get accosted every other day or so. If I stop by the local Blockbuster or Ralphs, the odds increase to about 99% (there are two homeless who have claimed each store parkinglot as their own, apparently).

So if I gave $20 to each homeless, I'd be shelling out about $500 per month...

	14-10-2002 13:45									#322
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: But, until then, why doesn't Israel intervene in the refugee situation and help out with their support? As well, Israel could demand that the Arab nations begin integration now. A lot of Americans would be very sympathetic to both these actions.

Israel did alot, both through direct donations to the refugees fund, and through actual improvement of life in the territories.

We ain't responsible for the rest, and don't intend to be suckers.

	14-10-2002 19:55									#323
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov quote: But, until then, why doesn't Israel intervene in the refugee situation and help out with their support? As well, Israel could demand that the Arab nations begin integration now. A lot of Americans would be very sympathetic to both these actions. Israel did alot, both through direct donations to the refugees fund, and through actual improvement of life in the territories. We ain't responsible for the rest, and don't intend to be suckers.

OK, then, credit any out-of-pocket against anything owed. But demand that the Arab nations at least begin full integration now. Demand that they no longer wait until a full peace treaty, as that may never happen given history.

You will see a tidal change in world sympathies.

	14-10-2002 21:32									#324
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov We ain't responsible for the rest, and don't intend to be suckers.

And why wouldn't you be? It was the IDF, or more importantly, the Hagana and the other groups that joined to gether into the IDF that made them refugees (please don't use the stupid 'radio broadcast' argument- that myth has been utterly disproven by israel's own historians). It was the Jewish Fund and the israeli governemnt that razed the villages, to erase any trace of their presence in the lnad, to hide the fact they ever existed. I agree that the Arab states have failed the refugees utterly, have failed them an opressed them, but that does not atone for Israel's actions. Israel has alway, from 1950 to today, blocked any deal about refugees, never wanting to allow even a few thousand back. 750,000 thousand people were driven from their homes. Israel always likes then to metion Jewish refugees (how can there be such a thing in the Zionist idea? isn't every Jew living outside of israel the refugee? Isn't going to israel going home? If so, how can any Jew who went to israel from not israel, be a refugee?) but thats 600,000. Fine, do a one for one swapt, and you still have 150,000 palestinians.

The math of 1947 makes things simple:

1.2 million people living in the mandate of palestine, 66% Palestinians, 33% Jewish. The state divided into three parts, a Jewish, a Palestinian, and International. The international part was 50-50%. The Arab part was 98% Palestinian, 2% Jewish (20K people plus), the Jewish section was 55% jewish-45% Arab. Hmmm, now, the Zionists want to create a democratic but also Jewish state. How can that be done with 45% Arab minority? It can't , as it would call for a constitution that gives all citizen equality for the state to make it, and how then could it be Jewish? 450,000 Palestinians had to 'go away' for the jewish state to take root, and once Israel's leaders decided that the partition deal was off, and they decided to only to fight for 'their half', but go for the whole thing, far more palestinians had 'to go'.

The Palestinian refugees exist ebcause they had to- otherwise, there would have been no democratic and Jewish state. israel must acknowledge this, and talke responsibility, for it is the great sin that also made israel possible.

	15-10-2002 00:51									#325
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

That story sounds awefully familiar Gepap... about kicking ethnic group out of the state to make ethnic pure democratic state. *coughcoughNazicoughcough

	15-10-2002 03:09									#326
	Get a bigger avatar today!

GePap, whether the refugees were forced to leave or left voluntarily is a question that we do have to answer. Israel has been very consistent since 1950 in being unwilling to take back more than just a handful of refugees. Despite this, the Arab states and the refugees themselves continue to insist full implementation of general assembly resolution 194 which calls for repatriation or compensation at the choice of the refugee. They know that if repatriation in large numbers were to occur Israel would cease to exist as a Jewish state. Thus the continuing existence of the refugees in their camps is testament to the continuing intention of the Arabs to destroy Israel.

This is why Israeli insistence on an immediate resolution of the refugee problem could put significant pressure on Arabs to finally acknowledge Israel's right to exist. Refusal to help the refugees after 50 years of neglect can no longer be thought of as solely Israel's fault unless one truly believes that Israel should be destroyed.

	15-10-2002 06:25									#327
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Eli I want to see a US or any European army division occupying an enemy city, with gunmen everywhere and boobytrapped main streets. They will burn half of it to the ground from the air even before thinking about entering. And when asked about civilian casualties, they will say that they couldnt risk the troops. >>>well there's your first problem. But when the troops are Jews? Who cares, the "civilians" must be protected! Bah, the claims of anti-semitism can only get you so far.

	15-10-2002 06:29									#328
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Ned GePap, whether the refugees were forced to leave or left voluntarily is a question that we do have to answer. Israel has been very consistent since 1950 in being unwilling to take back more than just a handful of refugees. Despite this, the Arab states and the refugees themselves continue to insist full implementation of general assembly resolution 194 which calls for repatriation or compensation at the choice of the refugee. They know that if repatriation in large numbers were to occur Israel would cease to exist as a Jewish state. Thus the continuing existence of the refugees in their camps is testament to the continuing intention of the Arabs to destroy Israel. This is why Israeli insistence on an immediate resolution of the refugee problem could put significant pressure on Arabs to finally acknowledge Israel's right to exist. Refusal to help the refugees after 50 years of neglect can no longer be thought of as solely Israel's fault unless one truly believes that Israel should be destroyed.

All for me, and nothing for you. If America were flooded by Mexicans, would it cease to be America? Jews and palestinians can't live in the same country in peace? Especially the ones whose families were pushed out?

Hmm, Israel just doesn't seem to be friendly in this case either.

Btw, for anyone keeping score, Israelis are still winning nearly 3:1.

	15-10-2002 06:39									#329
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by NeOmega All for me, and nothing for you. If America were flooded by Mexicans, would it cease to be America? Jews and palestinians can't live in the same country in peace? Especially the ones whose families were pushed out? Hmm, Israel just doesn't seem to be friendly in this case either. Btw, for anyone keeping score, Israelis are still winning nearly 3:1.

But there is a difference. The Mexicans are not hostile. They do not intend to drive Americans into the sea. They come to America seeking to enjoy the American way of life, America's freedoms and America's wealth. They want to be Americans.

The Palestinian situation couldn't be more different.

	15-10-2002 06:52									#330
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: GePap, whether the refugees were forced to leave or left voluntarily is a question that we do have to answer. Israel has been very consistent since 1950 in being unwilling to take back more than just a handful of refugees. Despite this, the Arab states and the refugees themselves continue to insist full implementation of general assembly resolution 194 which calls for repatriation or compensation at the choice of the refugee. They know that if repatriation in large numbers were to occur Israel would cease to exist as a Jewish state. Thus the continuing existence of the refugees in their camps is testament to the continuing intention of the Arabs to destroy Israel.

But this argument is fundamentally flawed...

Israel could easily solve the RoR by partitioning off some of the land within the green mile. Obviously citizens of a different country would not affect the demographics of Israel.

So, with that argument debunked, we are left with a very different conclusion. The continuing existence of the refugees in their camps is testament to the continuing greed of Israel.