09-10-2002 20:28									#31
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quote: Turkey would be accepted if it wasn't full of Turks.

True.

Many here think there are too many muslims here already. If Turkey joins, they may all go here. That's the way a lot of people nowadays think over here. Sadly.

	09-10-2002 20:30									#32
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quote: I'm probably paying for Paiktis to do whatever he does

and giancarlo. look at how Spain is freeloading. stupid third world country.

	09-10-2002 20:33									#33
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Spain only pretends to be poor to receive subsidies. It's not that bad really.

	09-10-2002 20:36									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Paul Hanson Spain only pretends to be poor to receive subsidies. It's not that bad really.

I know, they just get the donkeys out when then the money boys come round, kick some dust up and say oh look we're soo poor.

When they've gone they get their wads of euros out

	09-10-2002 20:38									#35
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"And this has what to do with Turkey?"

E. Germany didn't have a working judicial system. Depressed economically. Apalling human rights. No democracy.

Turkey is in much better shape on all of these issues besides economics than was E. Germany at that time.

"Many here think there are too many muslims here already. If Turkey joins, they may all go here. That's the way a lot of people nowadays think over here. Sadly."

I'm convinced that's 1/2 the heart of the matter, SM. Bring in as many atheists as possible. Leave faithful muslims at the curb. You should demand and expect better.

	09-10-2002 20:41									#36
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"E. Germany didn't have a working judicial system. Depressed economically. Apalling human rights. No democracy."

Apart from economic depression, none of that held in October 1990. Also german reunification has gone completely wrong economically.

"Turkey is in much better shape on all of these issues besides economics than was E. Germany at that time."

Just the other way round. Economy wise it may even be better. On the rest it's much worse.

	09-10-2002 20:42									#37
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"I'm convinced that's 1/2 the heart of the matter, SM."

Well for now there are enough reasons apart from religion. That will boil up when Turkey meets the criteria.

	09-10-2002 20:45									#38
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A large part of europe isn't very religious, and nor is Turkey IIRC.

In most parts of europr protestants get on well with catholics these days.

	09-10-2002 20:48									#39
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"Also german reunification has gone completely wrong economically."

I disagree. I see it as a matter of time rather than failed policy.

"On the rest it's much worse."

Had the Stasi been disbanded at the time?

"none of that held in October 1990"

Could you please give me some specifics on that? For instance, a link to the 1990 CIA Factbook or Amnesty report would be helpful.

"That will boil up when Turkey meets the criteria."

Hey, I've got an idea! Don't let it get to the point where there are actual negotiations going on for entry. Problem solved!

	09-10-2002 20:53									#40
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quote: I'm convinced that's 1/2 the heart of the matter, SM. Bring in as many atheists as possible. Leave faithful muslims at the curb. You should demand and expect better.

Tell that to the people who voted vor Le Pen, Haider, De Winter, (late) Fortuyn, etc.

Pim Fortuyn himself said that if it was up to him, not a single islamite would be allowed into the country. Similar, and even worse, comments have been made by many other politicians all over Europe, and many people agree with it. It's sad, I know, but it's the reality of present day Europe.

	09-10-2002 20:59									#41
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"I disagree. I see it as a matter of time rather than failed policy."

It is a matter of time. 30 years instead of 10, I guesstimate, due mostly to Kohl.

"Had the Stasi been disbanded at the time?"

Of course.

"Could you please give me some specifics on that?"

The regime fell in late 1989 and its apparatus fell apart. All you need is a brief of german reunification or the last year of the DDR.

"Hey, I've got an idea! Don't let it get to the point where there are actual negotiations going on for entry. Problem solved!"

I'm sure some would like that outcome, but the EU has been leaning out too far for that. If Turkey gets the basic things in order negotiations will start.

Btw it's far from certain Turkey will accept accession once it's negotiated.

	09-10-2002 21:01									#42
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eu is a pett progect of the political elete. wow let us watch now more jobs go away. soo n we can all be selling flowers and chocolates to fat amerika

we feel it like a uncared for colonist now. wont be long i move to sweden or italiay

	09-10-2002 21:05									#43
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Why aren't Malta and Cyprus already member they already meet the criteria for years?

I can't think of one reason to not allow Malta.

About the rest: a confederation has the right to accept or rejects who ever they want, on whatever way they want for whatever reason they want, even for no reason.

	09-10-2002 21:06									#44
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Malta was stalled when they had a leftie government that was opposed to EU membership.

	09-10-2002 21:07									#45
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"The regime fell in late 1989 and its apparatus fell apart. All you need is a brief of german reunification or the last year of the DDR."

So you're telling me that it takes but a year from the fall of the communist system, including the secret police, to be invited into the fold? From now on, I think I'm going to be more skeptical about this "it will take at least x years" argument.

"Btw it's far from certain Turkey will accept accession once it's negotiated."

True.

"It is a matter of time. 30 years instead of 10, I guesstimate, due mostly to Kohl."

10 years? It took at least 40 years from the reindustrialization of the South for it to start adding significantly to our bottom line.

Could you expand on what you see as policy failures?

	09-10-2002 21:11									#46
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quote: Originally posted by DanS "It's not in our interest to have a half-democracy with no working legal system as a member. If it's so fantastic, the US can always admit Turkey as state 51." I wouldn't mind doing so. We had the South during slavery and Jim Crow. DC was a segregated town 40 years ago, even though majority black. Point is, things can change quickly when encouraged. The U.S. has been very consistent on this. We encouraged the reunification of Germany immediately after the fall of communism, remember!

Just out of intrest: If Mexico asked you to join the US would the US then allow it to join,

	09-10-2002 21:12									#47
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"So you're telling me that it takes but a year from the fall of the communist system to be invited into the fold?"

As west germany took up the tap and guaranteed political and economic stability, yes. Technically it was not even an EU accession but a change in territorial borders - you may have noticed that the DDR has never been an EU member.

If you find someone doing that for Turkey, tell me.... the other reform states will have waited 15 years at least.

"10 years? It took at least 40 years from the reindustrialization of the South for it to start adding significantly to our bottom line."

The starting position was slightly different.

"Could you expand on what you see as policy failures?"

The two biggies are the 1:1 conversion of the Ostmark, and the excessive wage rises.

	09-10-2002 21:14									#48
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quote: Originally posted by kolpo Why aren't Malta and Cyprus already member they already meet the criteria for years? I can't think of one reason to not allow Malta. About the rest: a confederation has the right to accept or rejects who ever they want, on whatever way they want for whatever reason they want, even for no reason.

One good reason is suddenly my taxes get sent to them,

no thanks

	09-10-2002 21:16									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Roland Malta was stalled when they had a leftie government that was opposed to EU membership.

Oh they themself refused, that's a different story. Rather stupid of them: being in EU and especially using the euro would most likely boost there toeristic industry(one of there biggest economic activities I think).

	09-10-2002 21:17									#50
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The more loony wing of Malta's lefties was always more sympathetic to Ghaddafi than the EU.

	09-10-2002 21:19									#51
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has not idiot learned from mistakes on the past of not empire? why has eu come now in here.it is waste jobs leave now in last decade. eu not good idea i think not

	09-10-2002 21:21									#52
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"Just out of intrest: If Mexico asked you to join the US would the US then allow it to join,"

It's not been discussed, but the biggest barrier might be Mexico's wishes. You don't want to join a country where such barbaric practices as the death penalty are practiced, do you?

Practically and politically speaking it would be possible from the US side. I think it would depend on whether Puerto Rico decides to become a state, because the compromise on the recognition of a dual-language citizenry would already have been made. If Puerto Rico asks to become a state, I think it would be offered to them. A concensus of Puerto Ricans hasn't been reached yet, however. Indeed, if you want three opposing opinions on the subject, ask a Puerto Rican.

Last edited by DanS on 09-10-2002 at 21:31

	09-10-2002 21:36									#53
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Would you accept Mexico as a US state BEFORE it sorted out such things as not being democratic, using tortures, violating all sorts of human rights, having hostile relations with virtually all his neighboors and having a crap economy which would collapse if left wityhout HUGE aid and huge povery in its population?

I think not.

BTW Greece has lifted its veto for Turkey's assession. The others of our european counterparts are the ones who really don't want her in. A democratic, humane Turkey would be a great neighboor for Greece.
And the EU is trying to get her to be that. But it is not easy, and maybe it is not do-able, at all.

as for stinger, Greece consistently has had one of the highest GDP growth of the EU the last years.

Interesting chart BTW, Germany is the biggest benefactor.

	09-10-2002 21:37									#54
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To be more specific Greece's GDP growth in 2003 is estimated at 4% of which 1.3% will be the result of EU subsidies.

	09-10-2002 21:38									#55
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"Germany is the biggest benefactor"

Huh ?

	09-10-2002 21:40									#56
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Germany is the bigest net contributor.

Is your sig line from some movie or something mein kleine bavariani?

	09-10-2002 21:41									#57
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Ah.

The Sig line is a quote from I think Goethe. "Siehe mein Sohn, mit wie wenig Weisheit die Welt regiert wird..."

	09-10-2002 21:42									#58
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"bavariani".. sounds like it's from Babylon5....

	09-10-2002 21:45									#59
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eu not a good idea.. i tell you one more time. this as not truth but warning. i has lost my brake making job to canida yester day. if you not keep it in eu west and if you make it east you would see things move to lower cost araes like poland and then labor has made cheep and they will leaf west factorys to east

	09-10-2002 21:46									#60
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bavariani".. sounds like it's from Babylon5


could be, could be.