10-10-2002 12:56									#91
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If turkey joined the immigration officials In Greece and Turkey would have to stop hassling people who had been to the other country and were now trying to go there.

	10-10-2002 14:20									#92
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quote: Originally posted by Roland Anyway, that geography comes at a price. I have to say, it takes a bit of getting used to the idea that the EU would share a border with Syria, Iraq and Iran....

A list of countries that might join EU some day (yes, there are some long term plans for getting these countries into EU):

Russia
Ukraine
Georgia
Armenia
Azerbaijan

Think about what countries we will share border with if this becomes a reality. Not to mention Chechnya being a member of the EU

	10-10-2002 14:23									#93
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Not Russia.

	10-10-2002 14:53									#94
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We have gained a lot of the money(maybe even more) we invested in Spain back from increased trade with Spain because of it's growing economy. Just like the US got's more money back from increased trade with Europe then the cost of the Marshall plan.

	10-10-2002 14:57									#95
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I didn't say any of these countries WILL join EU, just that they might do, even Russia. But I don't expect it would happen anytime soon, anyway
I just think the idea of a well-functioning Russia in EU is very intriguing

Here are some articles on the topic:
http://www.poptel.org.uk/aries/memb...e/msg00326.html
http://www.eurunion.org/magazine/0206/p6.htm
http://www.worldlink.co.uk/stories/storyReader$836
http://europa.eu.int/comm/external_...s/russia/intro/
http://www.eva.fi/english/julkaisut/pietari/luku32.htm

	10-10-2002 15:01									#96
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I can't imagine Russia being willing to accept the full package, and I'm far from certain for Turkey on that. Both are mostly interested in the economic side, and we can always handle that via association.

	10-10-2002 15:42									#97
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I think that the Europe Union has done the right thing, but should have moved Turkey to the next step!

	10-10-2002 16:54									#98
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At least they hinted that Turkey will get increased support to solve their problems

Even though I'd love to see a unified Europe as soon as possible, we should be careful and not hurry things too much. An expansion should not create more problems than we are able to solve.

Let's just hope the Irish vote Yes to the Treaty of Nice next saturday, after all the trouble our eastern friends have gone through to join us, we shouldn't leave them outside

	10-10-2002 18:41									#99
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quote: Originally posted by Giovanni Wine Because in Malta people drive like crazy. Last time I went there I almost got invested 5 times in 2 weeks. Plus, if it is someone like me (who zip with his scooter at 95 km/h in the traffic jam of Turin) who is sayng that Maltish drive like crazy, it meens it is true. Saluti PS: And in Malta they also treat turist very bad

Yeah and they drive on the wrong side of the road as well. I love those 50 year old buses they've got there though.

I was treated well there. But I think they may have a thing against Italians. A "little brother syndrome" perhaps?

	10-10-2002 19:17									#100
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Yes!

	10-10-2002 19:18									#101
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CBeast! :shoot:

	10-10-2002 19:24									#102
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stop spamming you crazy jap

	10-10-2002 20:20									#103
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"Landgrabs are so 20th century....

Anyway, that geography comes at a price. I have to say, it takes a bit of getting used to the idea that the EU would share a border with Syria, Iraq and Iran...."

Landgrabs are timeless.

Admitting Turkey would make the EU a middle eastern and Asian power to be reckoned with, at a minimal cost in military hardware. Nowadays, the EU's interests aren't taken into account in the region.

Last edited by DanS on 10-10-2002 at 20:30

	10-10-2002 20:22									#104
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And the point of being a ME power is... ????

	10-10-2002 20:30									#105
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Dunno. Oil maybe?

	10-10-2002 20:32									#106
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Hmm...

Israel is a ME power.

And its vast oil reserves have escaped my attention ?

	10-10-2002 20:33									#107
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Don't be silly.

	10-10-2002 20:43									#108
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I genuinely don't understand what oil advantage it has to be a ME power. That we can take by force at higher cost what we can buy anyway?

	10-10-2002 20:59									#109
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Two advantages off the top of my head.

1) Pipelines and energy source diversification. Turkey has oil pipelines and the potential for natural gas pipelines (not sure how much is devoted currently to natural gas). Over time, this alternative source leveraged across the EU should result in more favorable treatment from Russia.

2) Infrastructure and development. The fields in the Gulf region require a lot of infrastructure and development work, and the awards for this business are mostly political. I'm sure the French, for instance, would like a larger share of this business. Right now, they don't have the political heft.

Edit: Besides, wouldn't you like to be the power broker in the ME rather than the US?

Last edited by DanS on 10-10-2002 at 21:05

	10-10-2002 23:05									#110
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quote: Besides, wouldn't you like to be the power broker in the ME rather than the US?

*Looks at site of of old Twin Towers.*

No.

	11-10-2002 12:38									#111
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"Pipelines and energy source diversification. Turkey has oil pipelines and the potential for natural gas pipelines..."

And Turkey has to be an EU member to get the oil and gas into the other member states ? Are there some mysterious changes of geography associated with EU accession ?

"The fields in the Gulf region require a lot of infrastructure and development work, and the awards for this business are mostly political."

So we should by efforts of foreign policy subsidize oil companies in order to become more dependent on an unreliable source of energy ? That may make sense in Washington...

"Right now, they don't have the political heft."

I don't think that's really the case. But so what. Oil companies shall go find their business elsewhere. I fail to understand why are you are such an ardent supporter of the nannystate.

"Besides, wouldn't you like to be the power broker in the ME rather than the US?"

I'm content if we can stop the US from ****ing up even worse there.

	11-10-2002 20:06									#112
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"*Looks at site of of old Twin Towers.*"

Clever, but it doesn't hold. The Twin Towers were said to be because of what the US had to do to become a power broker in the region--basing and the like on holy ground (oddly, I think we can understand this complaint very well). Not the fact that we were the power brokers. The EU w/Turkey wouldn't have those problems.

"And Turkey has to be an EU member to get the oil and gas into the other member states ?"

No, of course not. But securing Turkey for your side puts you in a much better position.

"So we should by efforts of foreign policy subsidize oil companies in order to become more dependent on an unreliable source of energy ?"

Yes, but would you cut down on the compound sentences, please? Natural gas is an excellent and reliable source of energy (Saudi Arabia, Qatar). Oil is a convenient source of energy, even though reliance on it should wane over time.

"I don't think that's really the case."

The only way France has the heft is to piggyback on EU institutions. This is fine, but consider that the EU isn't very well respected in the region because its countries no longer have military hardware there.

"Oil companies shall go find their business elsewhere."

It doesn't really work that way. There is a huge amount of oil and natural gas in the Gulf region. If you don't find the business there, your business is going to be working in more marginal places.

"I fail to understand why are you are such an ardent supporter of the nannystate."

For energy, it's necessity borne of experience.

	11-10-2002 20:40									#113
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quote: Originally posted by DanS "*Looks at site of of old Twin Towers.*" Clever, but it doesn't hold.

Its not your logic of whether it holds that I'm interested in. Its the ME's.

	11-10-2002 21:22									#114
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"No, of course not. But securing Turkey for your side puts you in a much better position."

A better position for what ?

"Yes, but would you cut down on the compound sentences, please?"

I try. Just be glad we don't conduct this conversation in german.

"Natural gas is an excellent and reliable source of energy (Saudi Arabia, Qatar). Oil is a convenient source of energy, even though reliance on it should wane over time."

Well the reliability problems are political.

"This is fine, but consider that the EU isn't very well respected in the region because its countries no longer have military hardware there."

Military hardware only wins you contracts in "liberated" Kuwait and occupied Iraq.

"If you don't find the business there, your business is going to be working in more marginal places."

And ?

"For energy, it's necessity borne of experience."

I'd prefer resources be used in a way that is profitable without state backing. If we can't get to the oil, get it somewhere else. If you can't, use other sources. Or should we intervene in say China to get access to their insurance market ?