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Saint Marcus
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Scio Me Nihil Scire
Jan 1970
time: 06:23
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from the CU and GL websites:
Groenlinks:
-Law on Consumer Information. All products should display information on "samenstelling, productiewijze, duurzaamheid en energieverbruik".
-Tax on pollution is increased. Tax on labour can be lowered.
-Governement should purchase enviromental friendly product, to set a good example.
-Statiegeld verplicht voor plastic
-pushing for an end of enviroment-unfriendly policies worldwide. focus: WTO, IMF, Worldbank
-Deltaplan Durable Energy.Target: 10% durable energy in the Netherlands in 2010.
-Kyoto demands are met withing Holland itself, plus decreasing CO2 emmisions in non-EU countries.
-Total energy use should be lowered by 5% in 4 years.
-Energytax for grootverbruikers
-Clear information on Green, Grey and Black energy
-Nuclear plants in Holland, EU and the World should close.
ChristenUnie:
-pushing for an end of enviroment-unfriendly policies worldwide. focus: EU
-taxes aimed to lower emmisions
-better control on companies' enviromental policies
-Kyoto demands met
-40-60% CO2 emmision reduction worldwide in 2030. support poor countries in this.
-Kyoto-2 treaty also applies to underdeveloped countries
-CO2 sinks allowed, but within limits
-more supervision on bodemsanering
-fight noise pollution
-clear and constistent waste policy. limited statiegeld on plastic
-European policy for the clearing and processing of waste
-strong control of fireworks
-strong control on transport of chemicals and other dangerous materials
-companies should make give information on the "persistentie, bio-accumulatie, toxiciteit" of the products used
you'll be the judge
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CyberShy
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Delft, The Netherlands
Mar 1999
time: 06:23
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quote:
Saint Marcus: so they are liars, yet you still support (and in this thread) defend them. Hmmm  |
No, I support CDA, not CU.
And it's ok with me if you dislike CU, but I like it when the CU will be disprespected for the right reasons.
It's as if someone will say that the SP is against poor people, in that case I would for sure stand up.
quote:
Can we just say that you hate Rosenmoller personally, and not his policies in general? since you only called the GL liars, and not the SP and CU with pro-green policies.  |
No, I like Rosenmuller personally (not in person, since I never met him in person)
He seems to be a nice guy.
I dislike the way he debates though.
I think I respect him for coming up for the weak, while he's self rich. And I respect him for defending the environment as well, but I dislike his argumentation and all that.
And yes, my opinion on people is not simplistic
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CyberShy
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Delft, The Netherlands
Mar 1999
time: 06:23
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quote:
Cybershy: do you think building more roads will fix the transportation problem? that's what the CDA and VVD are doing... |
More roads will not fix the problem.
But in example, I drive from Delft to Woerden everyday,
A4 - A12
Prince Claus Square, A13, A12 and A4 merge together, and split into A12 and A4 (to Utrecht and to Amsterdam)
Since all cars come from all sides and have to move to all sides, it's one mess there, with cars switching lanes, from the 4th to the 1st lane, and back.
A solution there could be some fly-overs, so cars who have to stay on the A4 will not be bothered with the cars who come from the A13 and want to go to the A12 etc. etc.
Another example: The A12 merges with the A20 after Gouda, 2 + 2 lanes is 4 lanes. No problem there, but further it goes back from 4 to 3 lanes, and right before Woerden it becomes 4 lanes again. On the way to Woerden and on the way back, right before the 4 to 3 lanes switch there's a big que every day.
Make the middle-part 4 lanes as well, and the problem is solved. That counts for the A4 near Zoetewouderijndijk as well. And there are much more examples.
Some roads like the A13 and the A9 do need more lanes in general. The A13 is the busiest highway in Europe, between Den Haag and Rotterdam.
But in the end we need to search for better solutions indeed!
Pim Fortuyn talked about parkplaces outside the city with metro's who bring the people into the city within minutes. that will do a lot.
I wouldn't have any problems with driving from Delft to Amsterdam, to park my car on a huge parkplace just outside Amsterdam, to take the metro to Slotedijk, where I have to work oftenly for the Telegraaf. That would save me from driving the Ring A10.
Taking the train from Delft CS to Amsterdam Slotedijk is no option for me. I have to travel 15 minutes by bike to get at Delft CS, than I have to step over on Den Haag HS and on Amsterdam CS again, and after that I hvae to walk another 5 minutes.
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germanos
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behind a firm ****, Rotterdam, NL
Apr 2002
time: 06:23
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quote:
Originally posted by CyberShy
Taking the train from Delft CS to Amsterdam Slotedijk is no option for me. I have to travel 15 minutes by bike to get at Delft CS, than I have to step over on Den Haag HS and on Amsterdam CS again, and after that I hvae to walk another 5 minutes. |
wow, just two minutes in and then this.
If you drive like that with public transport, I can only say you are a complete.......
I am positively sure that every half hour there is a direct train from Delft to Sloterdijk.
15 minutes before and after there is another train to Leiden, which will allow you to switch trains, and get the train to Sloterdijk.
In both instances, you will get there in, ummm let me guess... 45 minutes. Tell me, how long does it take by car?
You may like public transport or not, but do not tell bloody lies 
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germanos
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behind a firm ****, Rotterdam, NL
Apr 2002
time: 06:23
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Oops, it took a while 
quote:
originally posted by GermanosI don't see why you bother to stick your head in the noose for the SGP though. |
Why do you stand up for the SGP and the CU, when you do try to persuade your friends to stop voting for either of these parties and vote for the CDA instead?
All other quotes by Cybershy.
quote:
So does the CDA! They have much principles! |
versus
quote:
Pragmatism is very important for a governamental party. I think it's more important than principles. |
quote:
But take adoption by gay-couples, it involves a child as well. I think it's against nature that two fathers or two mothers have a baby. It seems to be better for a child to be raised by a hetero couple. Of course there's some nuance in the "better two fathers than no father at all" discussion, which is indeed not simplistic to be answered. |
Nature has very little to do with this matter. What matters most is wether the child is wanted. I would hate the situation where a child will be raised by either an orphanage or a hetero couple that will just take care of the kid to prevent it from falling in the "unnatural' situation of being raised by two homosexuals.
Secondly, since mankind is a social animal, children do get raised by many people: parents, neighbours, aunts and uncles, reachers, playmates, grandparents, you name it. There are bound to be homosexuals in their social environment anyway. You would give the child a bad sign if you were to prohibit contact with them then. And if you would agree contact with homosexuals is not bad for the child, I don't see why homosexuals raising a child would be more harmfull.
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It's just unfortunately that they never understood the bible |
and
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That we have a different opinion on this doesn't make me a  . Your opinion might be "Everybody can get their own truth out of the bible" and mine is "There's one truth in the bible". It's not as if yours is the default opinion, or the only right one, because it's very obvious that you don't concider my opinion to be one of those "true opinions" about the bible. |
Don't talk about what I might think. I will tell you what I think, and if I don't, you can ask. :doitnow:
Your first quote is exactly that of which you accuse ME in the second quote.
I'll have to credit you that you beautifully rephrased my sarcastic "good argument" with:
" It's not as if yours is the default opinion, or the only right one."
Since we are discussing politics here, and not religion, let alone the Bible, I'll save my ammo for a "one truth in holy scriptures " thread. It's unlikely I will join such a thread though.
quote:
CU is greener than GL. |
and
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Laat nu uitgerekend de ChristenUnie - de samenvoeging van de twee kleine maar stevig christelijke partijen GPV en RPF - een van de groenste verkiezingsprogramma's hebben. |
The dutch quote doesn't support your first claim. It says the CU is one of the greenest parties. From the other dutch quote you posted, it might well mean that #1 and #2 are GL and SP, while CU comes third.
Energy, food and related topics: later 
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CyberShy
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Delft, The Netherlands
Mar 1999
time: 06:23
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quote:
Germanos: In both instances, you will get there in, ummm let me guess... 45 minutes. Tell me, how long does it take by car? |
My wife travels every day to Sloterdijk by train. (She works in the Elsevier building) it takes her 1 hour and 15 minutes. (Including traveling to the station, and from the station to her office)
Even *if* it would last as long as by car (1 hour) I would prefer taking the car, because it's much more comfortable, I can listen to music, I have a good seat. My wife has to stand much, has to 'step over' (at least to the metro), she needs to use the bike.
quote:
You may like public transport or not, but do not tell bloody lies |
I don't lie it, if I'm not completely wrong, it's because I don't know it exactly. I'm sorry if it's wrong.
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Saint Marcus: what if the city grows? |
That doesn't matter, the highway will still go to the parkplace, and from that point you can travel easily further. Of course it would be smart to not build houses near the parkplaces
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germanos: Why do you stand up for the SGP and the CU, when you do try to persuade your friends to stop voting for either of these parties and vote for the CDA instead? |
Easy example:
a friend makes an essay, the teacher thinks it's word a E, I think it's worth a B, while I think my essay is worth an A. I'll talk into my teacher that he should give my friend a B, but I tell my friend he'd better had done it the way I did.
quote:
CyberShy: So does the CDA! They have much principles! |
versus:
quote:
CyberShy: Pragmatism is very important for a governamental party. I think it's more important than principles. |
That doesn't conflict with each other, it's good to have principles, but you must be pragmatic to reign the country. Of course as much as possible based on your principles, but if only 60% of your principles will be excecuted if you participate in the governament, and 20% if you do not participate, it's the pragmatic right choise to be a part of the governament.
If you think your principles are more important than pragmatism you say "I will only take place into the governament if 100% of my principles will be executed"
This will mostly result in a party like GL, an only very few of your principles will be executed.
quote:
Nature has very little to do with this matter. What matters most is wether the child is wanted. I would hate the situation where a child will be raised by either an orphanage or a hetero couple that will just take care of the kid to prevent it from falling in the "unnatural' situation of being raised by two homosexuals. |
that's true.
I totally agree on that.
I prefer two homosexual parents above no parents at all as well. I think I even prefer that above only one parent. But I think that the most ideal situation is that an orphan will be adopted by a hetero couple.
quote:
Secondly, since mankind is a social animal, children do get raised by many people: parents, neighbours, aunts and uncles, reachers, playmates, grandparents, you name it. There are bound to be homosexuals in their social environment anyway. You would give the child a bad sign if you were to prohibit contact with them then. And if you would agree contact with homosexuals is not bad for the child, I don't see why homosexuals raising a child would be more harmfull. |
I think the ideal home situation is the place where you have a father and a mother. If you believe in evolution, natural selection has made it so that children grow up in families with a father and a mother. We're differnt on that than most animals.
I'm not talking about children shouldn't contact gay people, they should know about their existance, and they should know that they should be respecte equal. But I hope that every child will have a home with a father and a mother.
I prefer two homosexuals above 2 fighting hetero's.
I prefer two homosexuals above a divorced couple.
But most ideal in my opinion is a father and a mother.
Pherhaps we agree on this?
Than I agree to disagree on that issue if homosexual couples for that matter can adopt or not.
quote:
Your first quote is exactly that of which you accuse ME in the second quote. |
No, it's just that *In my opinion* they misunderstood the bible. They have the right to do that, I will not sue them or kill them. But I'm sad that they do not understand it the way it was meant in my opinion.
Like I'm sad that you're not a christian. I wish you were one. But I respect you equal, and I completely agree that it's your right to have another opinion.
I hope you will respect my opinion on that as well, and not on it.
quote:
The dutch quote doesn't support your first claim. It says the CU is one of the greenest parties. From the other dutch quote you posted, it might well mean that #1 and #2 are GL and SP, while CU comes third. |
Usually this means that the party talked about is the greenst. If you compare it with the other quote, in which the CU green-program is praised more than the GL program, I think you can conclude that milieu defense does appreciate the CU program than the GL program.
Of course it will always be an issue of discussion on which of the two is the greenst. It's just that I know that there are greenish people who prefer CU above GL. I met them on dutch politics fora. Of course it is a case of opinion.
Anyway, it's a fact that CU is a very green party, at least one of the greenst
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germanos
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behind a firm ****, Rotterdam, NL
Apr 2002
time: 06:23
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quote:
Originally posted by CyberShy
Even *if* it would last as long as by car (1 hour) I would prefer taking the car, because it's much more comfortable, I can listen to music, I have a good seat. My wife has to stand much, has to 'step over' (at least to the metro), she needs to use the bike. |
Now THAT is a reason to travel by car, and I can respect you for that. But it is really silly you first have to try complaining about the supposedly bad connections public transport has.
It is really cheap to first say public transport sucks, while in fact you would still travel by car for other reasons.
It is allready a well estabvlished fact that for the very reason you post here people will stick in their cars, no matter how well public transport is organised. For the very same reason many people prefer to travel ALONE in their cars, they just want to spend some time alone, and listen to their own favorite music. That is fine with me, but then stop complaining about the fully blocked roads, created by your fellow singular travelers.
It all ends up to making choices. It is so easy to think society should be made around your own individual wishes.
quote:
by GermanosYou may like public transport or not, but do not tell bloody lies |
quote:
I don't lie it, if I'm not completely wrong, it's because I don't know it exactly. I'm sorry if it's wrong.
My wife travels every day to Sloterdijk by train. (She works in the Elsevier building) it takes her 1 hour and 15 minutes. (Including traveling to the station, and from the station to her office) |
Allways willing to help out my neighbours, I did a search for Railway travel for your wife. There is really no need for her to change-over.
And for your information: I am a frequent railway traveler, and I NEVER have to stand, and yes, I do travel the same route your wife takes
 Attachment: cybershy.jpg
This has been downloaded 43 time(s).
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CyberShy
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Delft, The Netherlands
Mar 1999
time: 06:23
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quote:
But it is really silly you first have to try complaining about the supposedly bad connections public transport has. |
That's not what I meant, bad connections, I thought I should have to change in The Hague, but I am apparently wrong. Now do a Delft-Woerden search #doitnow!# that's my current daily route.
But what I mean with changing, is from bike to train, and from train to metro. (that's what she should do, I shouldn't have to use the metro for the Telegraaf building, but I would have to walk 8 minutes)
together with biking / walking / delay it would take 1 hour and 15 minutes to travel from my house to Amsterdam-Telegraaf.
Including rain, wind and all that.
She told me lately that she had to stand the entire traject. I don't know if that's usual. Pherhaps it's not that that's why she told me.
quote:
It is really cheap to first say public transport sucks, while in fact you would still travel by car for other reasons. |
Well, it's not as if I say that public transport sucks, I think it's a good system. But I like traveling by car more. And I do not complain about ques (files?) besides for the ques that are there because the road is a 'trechter'. (is. 3 to 2 lanes, 4 to 3 lanes)
besides that, it's a choise indeed.
But now imagine that 30% of these 'singular travelers' would indeed take the train...... Do you give it any change that the public transport system can manage that? No way. The train would be the same mess the roads are right now. The train is a virtual alternative, but in reality it's impossible for the car-drivers to change into train-travelers.
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germanos
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behind a firm ****, Rotterdam, NL
Apr 2002
time: 06:23
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CyberShy, you are really impossible to have a discussion with. You keep changing your arguments!
First you complain about Delft-Sloterdijk, and now it turns out not to be in support of your statements you find another route. Silly. And do your own bloody search, it is on www.ns.nl. :doityourself:
quote:
But what I mean with changing, is from bike to train, and from train to metro. (that's what she should do, I shouldn't have to use the metro for the Telegraaf building, but I would have to walk 8 minutes) |
IIRC, a few posts ago you were in favor of having big carparks where forensic trafic could change to subway/streetcars to move into dense urban area's.
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Including rain, wind and all that. |
And often:
Sun, fresh air, getting some exersise after you sit all day on your butt at the office. The wonderfull smell of spring, the wonderfull smell of the light freeze in the winter, the fun of walking through the snow,hearing the birds sing...
Gee, God made this planet a hellhole to live in. I hope for you that at where-ever you go they have at least an undergroung carpark. Otherwise you will still be subject to the Elements after you leave your save motorized cocoon
[BIG] [/BIG]
quote:
besides that, it's a choise indeed. |
Good, we finally agree.
And thus building more roads or not is a choice as well.
Neither more roads nor more Public transport will ever ensure that in the morning a lot of people decide to start traveling, and thus crowds and congestion will arise.
And in the end the people will have to get into the city or industrial area's they work, and the traffic jam will occur their.
I suppose in many cases they are very aware that increasing the capacity of certain stretches of highway will only result in the traffic-jam to occur a few kilometers further on. Wisely, they decide not to waste good money on that.
BTW: there have been studies made on the amount of time spend by people traveling to work, or the time they are willing to spend going to a holiday-spot.
Guess what the outcome was:
In the last century the time spent has been practically the same! They only travel further away.
That is why the continuous roadbuilding has not solved the traffic jams...
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CyberShy
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Delft, The Netherlands
Mar 1999
time: 06:23
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quote:
CyberShy, you are really impossible to have a discussion with. You keep changing your arguments! |
If you read well, you see that's not what I do.
I admitted on a few issues that I was wrong. But explained on some other issues what I exactly meant.
quote:
First you complain about Delft-Sloterdijk, and now it turns out not to be in support of your statements you find another route. Silly. And do your own bloody search, it is on www.ns.nl. :doityourself: |
Oh no, I my statements for Delft-Sloterdijk are still more or less the same. I do not have to change trains, but it still takes me 1 hour and 15 minutes, including walking and biking.
quote:
IIRC, a few posts ago you were in favor of having big carparks where forensic trafic could change to subway/streetcars to move into dense urban area's. |
I'm still in favor of that.
I would love it to park my car outside Woerden, and travel the last 2 minutes per metro. (It takes 15 minutes to get into and outside Woerden)
As long as I don't have to walk / bike
It will still be not as comfortable as the car (I do'nt have to change train/ metro in there) but it would be better though.
quote:
And often:
Sun, fresh air, getting some exersise after you sit all day on your butt at the office. |
I love it to enjoy all of that in my free-time.
So I can pick out the better wetter-types, and I'm not forced to go through the rain.
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I hope for you that at where-ever you go they have at least an undergroung carpark. Otherwise you will still be subject to the Elements after you leave your save motorized cocoon |
Thanks for your support
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And thus building more roads or not is a choice as well. |
I say, finish the A4 and the A5, make every road a 4-lane road, and done we are. (or 3-lane, as long as there are no 4-3 / 3-2 lanes switches and all that I have talked about before)
quote:
I suppose in many cases they are very aware that increasing the capacity of certain stretches of highway will only result in the traffic-jam to occur a few kilometers further on. Wisely, they decide not to waste good money on that. |
that's why they should take away all the botlenecks.
And the cities, that are botlenecks as well should contain those big parkplaces, that can absorb the cars quickly.
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22-10-2002 17:30
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