20-10-2002 02:30									#121
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quote: Kezen

That's how you call us?

	20-10-2002 02:31									#122
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quote: Then we must vote for the Vlaams Blok? They are the only party that wants that Flanders joins the Netherlands

they want that for real? sweet

	20-10-2002 02:39									#123
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus they want that for real? sweet

Not. I like Belgium to stay Belgium. We need a country that has qualities we can look up to. Belgium !

	20-10-2002 02:44									#124
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Hmmm... kolpo, you might have a point there. Indeed, most 'educated' people would still go voting, while certain groups wouldn't. Still, it seems a strange move: forcing people to vote to keep it democratic.

Kezen: I thought that was the term you guys liked to hear, it is in no way offending (or at least not intended like that). The Netherlands is a milk-and-cheese country, even if there are more Belgian cheeses

DeepO

	20-10-2002 02:48									#125
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quote: Kezen: I thought that was the term you guys liked to hear, it is in no way offending (or at least not intended like that). The Netherlands is a milk-and-cheese country, even if there are more Belgian cheeses

Ah, I thought you meant the name "Kees". When it comes to cheese we proudly use the "geuzennaam*" "Kaaskoppen"

* Another reason why we should be allowed to talk Dutch in threads like this

	20-10-2002 03:17									#126
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quote: Originally posted by kolpo Then we must vote for the Vlaams Blok? They are the only party that wants that Flanders joins the Netherlands(and Walon France).

I don't beleive you. Please post a link or other proof that the Vlaams Blok wants to abandon Vlaanderen in favor of a Union with Holland.

It is not called the Dutch Block...

	20-10-2002 03:44									#127
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quote: Originally posted by Hueij quote: ...or in any sense extreme-right. Oh? I seem to recall a certain remark by Saint Pim about a certain "backward" religion. Fairly extreme in my book.

Hueij, we already discussed the SGP.

BTW: Most of what Fortuyn daid was crap, but his remarks about the pathetic state the Islamic world is in are one of the few that were right on Target.
I disagree with you that many voted for the LPF because they found a podium for their xenophobic views. If so, they have had plenty of opportunaty with the CP/CD.
If their vote was a protest vote related to the immigration in Holland, it was because 'political correctness' obliges everyone to keep their mouth shuit on anything bad immigration or immigrants might bring. It is OK to call everything non-foreign backward, but it is not to say so about Islam.
Islam, as well as various other religions, preach various points that are in direct conflict with the Dutch constitution, and one may well argue they are in direct conflict with basic human rights.

I guess it depends on your personal view to our constitution wether you consider the religions or the constitution backward.

	20-10-2002 04:26									#128
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quote: ...with the CP/CD

We were lucky that the CD had a clown like Janmmaat for its leader. Saint Pim however was someone else...

	20-10-2002 04:47									#129
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quote: We need a country that has qualities we can look up to

True. But no dutchman looks up to Belgium.

	20-10-2002 04:48									#130
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus True. But no dutchman looks up to Belgium.

I do

	20-10-2002 05:19									#131
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quote: I do

You're just weird then

I live right on the border of Holland and Belgium, and my sister even lives in Belgium, so I know a good deal about both countries. Though there are a number of things that are better in Belgium than in Holland (gasoline prices, metropolis movie theather in antwerp, number of rooms available for students, etc), just on average (if you take everything into account), we're the bigger, better and richer brother.

	20-10-2002 05:22									#132
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Kolpo, well said about stemplicht! It's the biggest reason why I'm in favour of the duty to vote, as I vote left.

quote: Still, it seems a strange move: forcing people to vote to keep it democratic.

Life is full of paradoxes. Sometimes you need to do the opposite of what you want to reach to reach it.

quote: Then we must vote for the Vlaams Blok? They are the only party that wants that Flanders joins the Netherlands

Are you sure they don't want the Netherlands to join Flanders?

	20-10-2002 05:32									#133
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quote: we're the bigger, better and richer brother

No you aren't according to the Human Development Index.

http://www.undp.org/hdr2001/hdi.pdf

	20-10-2002 07:24									#134
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yeah... and this is taking Belgium as one piece. I heared on the news last week (I wanted to find it online, but couldn't) that Flanders is now considered to be the richest region in the world... not number 5, but number 1. But politically speaking? I don't know which country I'd prefer.

DeepO

	20-10-2002 16:42									#135
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO Flanders is now considered to be the richest region in the world... DeepO

you don't seriously beleive that do you?

	20-10-2002 16:57									#136
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quote: Flanders is now considered to be the richest region in the world...

All true, if you were living in the 15th century

	20-10-2002 17:04									#137
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[Raymond van het Groenewoud]Vlaanderen bohoven...[/Raymond van het Groenewoud]

	20-10-2002 17:23									#138
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well... as said, I can't find it online. I thought that with a new (UN? Worldbank?) report, Flanders moved from the 3rd position to a shared first... the region around Hamburg was third, and the other finalist was the region around Oslo, if I'm not mistaken.

If you think this is so funny, what would be the richest region according to you? Groningen? Surely not Rotterdam, one of the reasons why Flanders does so well is because Brussels and the other bigger cities of Belgium (apart from Antwerp) are not included; the bigger the city, the lower the average income.

DeepO

	20-10-2002 17:40									#139
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO one of the reasons why Flanders does so well is because Brussels and the other bigger cities of Belgium (apart from Antwerp) are not included; the bigger the city, the lower the average income. DeepO

That is exactly why the statement of Vlaanderen being the richest region is complete crap.
It all depends on what you define as a region. It is rather easy to exclude everything that brings the average down.

Statistics are usually bullocks, and this has once again proven it.
I'm pretty sure the national debt of Belgium is not taken into acount as well. And we both know that is HUGE, and there is not much to balance it with (like high quality infrastructure or the like).

Richest regions in the world? It all depends on what you regard rich (bank accounts? Annual Income? Value of Immobilities?, and then: in absolute numbers or per capita?). But I am pretty sure that Vlaanderen cannot compete with any of the known list: Arab Opec-countries, the usual low-tax havens (of which Vlaanderen is regarded one, many filthy rich Dutch hiding there ), Any other Northern Europe Nation, US, UK etc. etc.

Soory mate, I wish you all the wealth, but just look around you in Vlaanderen, look at the state of the infrastructure, and you know that Vlaanderen is FAR from the richest region in the world.

	20-10-2002 17:52									#140
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Have you all heard?

Soon after CyberShy put the CU on the spot as the third coalition-partner in the new government, an emediate leader-crisis broke out in the very best LPF-tradition.

Kars Veeling, the party-leader in the last election, was dismissed as the one to lead the party in the next elections. This because the CU lost a seat, while it was hoped (in vain offcourse ) they would gain a seat. The great joke about it is that the CU actaully got MORE votes then last time, but since the turnout was so high, in percentage they got less, and thus lost a seat.

I heard the guy on the radio, and he was close to crying.

Vote CU for a stable government

	20-10-2002 18:03									#141
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quote: Richest regions in the world?

the first question would be: what is a region?

now enough of the Belgian threadjacking.

quote: Kars Veeling, the party-leader in the last election, was dismissed as the one to lead the party in the next elections.

not cool. the guy was pretty moderate. now we'll have Van Dijke as party leader

	20-10-2002 18:09									#142
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus not cool. the guy was pretty moderate. now we'll have Van Dijke as party leader

Yep Zalm will really like to have him in his coalition.

	20-10-2002 18:14									#143
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Sorry, please don't answer this to avoid thread jacking, but some comments to your posts (which hopefully don't mean you feel the urge to respond as well): Flanders is very clearly defined, from a political point of view. It has it's own government, and the territory is defined to the last meter. Brussels is not part of it, as it has it's own government, and neither are Luik, Charleroi, and some other Welsh, poor cities. The total debt of Belgium is huge indeed (some 250 billion euro), but Flanders has a surplus of about 50 billion euro each year... which is used by the other two regions in Belgium. I consider this our form of developmental aid, others see a reason here to split Belgium in two.

I don't think infrastructure was part of the calculation, but we're not that bad: a denser road network then any other country in the world, two modern harbors, and an electricity net that transports over 25% of Dutch 'green' electricity from the French nuclear plants. What was part of the calculation is the level of education and life expectancy, both of which are very high here. And indeed, those immigrating Dutchmen will only help tilt the balance, which I consider ironic seeing as part of you golden 17th century was caused by Flemish merchants fleeing the Spanish oppressors

Now... let's get back to Duch politics, I find that at least as interesting to read.

DeepO

	20-10-2002 20:00									#144
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ok, back on dutch politics (btw, why don't you start your own thread on this issue, so we can debate it further?)

Nawijn (minister of immigration) will head the LPF in the campaign, Maas will be the chairman of the party (no longer as interm manager). Nawijn is quite a bit more to the extreme-right as Fortuyn was. Nawijn was the guy who suggested that criminals with a dutch passport, but foreign parents, should be deported to the country where their parents came from.

Heinsbroek (minister of economics) may head a different LPF-spin-off party. Details yet unknown.

Van Nieuwenhoven, Bos or De Vries will head the PvdA. I'm hoping on Bos myself, though Van Nieuwenhoven (former chairwoman of the Second Chamber) hasn't done badly either.

Still unclear who'll head the CU, but I expect (and fear) that it will be Van Dijke (the guy who said homosexuality was as bad as theft).

Zalm will head the VVD, Balkenende the CDA, Rosenmuller GL, Marijnese the SP.

Does anyone know about D66, SGP and LN?

	20-10-2002 22:06									#145
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Leefbaar Nederland will stick to Fred Teeven.

SGP will most likely be headed by God...ehhh...Bert van der Vlies isn't it? He doesn't matter in any case.

Neither does D66, but I'm pretty sure it will be 'de krullenbol' whatever is his name... de Graaff I think.

De Vries is a very risky candidate for the PvdA, since shortly before the elections the report on Fortuyn's security will be published, and then some ****, rightfully or not, will hit the fan of our former Interior Minister.

edit: Nawijn is still unsure. Apparently he wants to head the list, but has said he will not take a seat in Parlement if the LPF will not secure a seat in the government (YES, new politics!).

Last edited by germanos on 20-10-2002 at 22:12

	20-10-2002 22:17									#146
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I don't think De Vries would be chosen as head of the PvdA anyways...

	21-10-2002 16:01									#147
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the LPF wants a "lijmpoging" again

	21-10-2002 16:23									#148
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quote: the LPF wants a "lijmpoging" again

That's just pathetic, in the current polls they'll lose big time, so now they're doing everything they can too keep their 26(?) precious seats. Why can't they just accept their loss? It might keep the losses down. Off course CDA (and VVD?)isn't exactly jumping to continue with the LPF , since they will most likely grow if there would be new elections

	21-10-2002 16:31									#149
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dutch politics can be so funny

	21-10-2002 16:46									#150
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Elections are likely to be held January 22nd.

The LPF is suck a big sick joke: they want to continue the cabinet in the best interest of the Country.
They should have convinced their own people they should stop their quareling in the best interest of the country and their voters.

Looooosers bigtime