23-10-2002 01:14									#31
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You should use BeBro wonders, and objectives shouldnt be the only use for wonders: strategy should be included.
Suggestions:
Alexander' Army (sun tzu) = Caesar's Gallic cavalry,
=> Caesar used heavily gallian cavalry in his legions.
Put it somewhere in Gallia Cisalpina or Gallia Narbonensis. Heavy objective for Pomp. to conquer!

Do not include Senat as wonder, palace is more proper,
also coz at time Rome had two senats (one for C., another for P.). Capitolium Hill is also a mere joke, one cannot build a hill. and romans did had that hill from beginning.

Another problem in that kind of scenario: no sieges!
Everything decided in battles. You could consider extremely low stat defence units.

For Caesar the civil war was a piece of cake anyway,
so maybe you could make Pompeius (and republicans) only playable side. Put most happiness wonders in Italy as easy gain for Caesar and give no temples for Pompeius. Or give real sh***y legions for Pompeius at start, which can improve in time.

As Caesar, scenario could start at Gallic wars, to gather forces to conquer Rome. And starting cities in Narbonensis and Cisalpina. Plus bunch of legions.
Time could be worst enemy against Caesar: Pompeius can build an army in Italy or gain crucial units.
Put that Gallic Cavalry wonder in middle of Gallia to be a huge gain for Caesar. In that case many civs must be Gallic tribes.

Egyptians were no power at that time. they had their fleet in Antony's time, but hardly no army. But dont forget that egyptians executed pompeius for caesar.

You can consider Asia Minor countries not as parts of republica but as vassals. Maybe as allies for Pompeius.

Sicily must be very hard conquest for Caesar, Pomp. Junior ruled Sicily as pirate state until times of Augustus.

	23-10-2002 07:21									#32
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Gaius, thanks for your comments. The description of this scenario began on the graphics showcase thread about 6 pages back, so you probably missed it. It's a scenario of the Roman Civil War starting with the formation of the 1st Triumverate. There would be 7 playable civs: Caesar, Pompey, Crassus, the Senate (Cicero), the Gauls (Vercingetorix), the Egyptians (Cleopatra), and the Parthians (Orodes).

It'll run from 55 to 44 BC (the Ides of March) and will be intended for multiplayer. Rome has 4 factions at the start. Caesar, Pompey and Crassus were ambitous men with control of various provinces and Legions who formed a temporary alliance to further their own interests. Cicero represents the Senate, by far the largest Roman faction, but hampered by unrest and limited military forces. Gaul, Parthia and Egypt will also be playable. Barbarians will represent Numidians, Judeans, Thracians, Armenians, Germans, Dacians and Britons.

It will only be a piece of cake for Caesar if that player is better than his opponents! But there were indeed seiges in the Civil Wars: JC conducted several, including Brindisium and Massila. Still I agree, multiplayer games are more fun with rapid movement, good offensive units and lots of trade. This one will have all of these, and I hope some good hard seiges as well.

	23-10-2002 14:50									#33
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really missed that at graphics thread, thanks.

Anyhow i can see some problems with playable sides.
1st crassus died very unfortunately, his "provinces"
were more like tribute-paying vassals (IMHO).

Egypt was very much at the lowest of the low at time, so how can she play any importance at stage... And once more they didn't have more army or manpower than to suppress possible rebels.

I wondered how will You divide Rome between Cicero and Pompeius. Pompeius stood in Rome as consul, and he controlled all Italy and Greece. (confronting Crassus and Caesar who were given status of proconsul and therefore provinces) Or will Cicero be in Italy as ally for other sides?

Will Parthia be only as counterpart for Crassus?
How prevent Gauls from conquering Iberia or G.Cisalpina?
Will You add house-rule -- no alliance btw. foreigners and romans?...

best regards...

	24-10-2002 09:12									#34
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Cicero (the Senate) controls Italy, Greece, Africa and part of Asia Minor at the start. Geographically it's quite large, but militarily it's weak. Caesar controls Cisalpine and Transalpine Gaul (north Italy and southern France). Pompey controls most of Spain. Crassus has Cyprus and Syria.

One problem is that Parthia may be too powerful, particularly because it has no enemy behind it. Armenia was an ally of Crassus, so I'm thinking of ways to give Crassus Armenian reinforcements via events.

Egypt may be weak, but it will have a fleet, money and lots of food - something that will be of some value, esp. for large cities.

The finer points of Roman politics cannot be duplicated by the Civ game engine (eg. the Senate offering Pompey the command against Caesar). These things will have to be resolved the usual way - by diplomacy and war.

	27-10-2002 20:33									#35
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Here´s what I´ve done so far, you only have to cut/paste it into the ToT format/units file.

Hope you like it

Attachment: veneti.gif
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	27-10-2002 21:14									#36
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Wow

	27-10-2002 22:12									#37
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Very nice. Thank you.

	28-10-2002 13:08									#38
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I've determined most of the wonders: The Senate, Circus Maximus and the Forum Romanum in Rome, the Spanish Mines in Hispalis, The Parthenon in Athens, The Statue of Zeus in Olympia, The Pyramids in Memphis, the Pharos and Great Library in Alexandria, The Temple of Artemis in Ephesos, the Mausoleum in Halicarnassus, The Ishtar Gate in Babylon, the Golden Throne in Ctesphion, Zoroaster's Temple in Ecbatana and the Colossus of Rhodes - 15 in all.

I'm thinking of a couple more: the Treasury in Petra, and Caves of Mithra, somewhere in Armenia.

I can't help feel that there should be some wonders in Italy outside Rome. Also in North Africa - aside from the ruins of Carthage, was there anything "monumental"?

	29-10-2002 02:25									#39
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Hey tech, I received your PM, and I've given that some thought.
In addition to those you already have, you may want to consider including the royal tombs or the temple complex of Nisa (near today's Ashghabad in Turkmenistan).
Maybe "Zoraster's Temple" is inappropriate. I'd suggest something like "Zoroastrian faith" situated somewhere in the region around modern-day Kerman or the Zagros mountains (in that case, Ecbatana is propably the best choice).
Let me also correct a common-held misconception: Ctesiphon wasn't the Parthian capital, it was only a winter residence, and around 50 BC. The Parthian capital was based around Nisa/Ashghabad at that time, one source claims a city called "Abiward", which might even be Ashghabad 'itself', though I cannot guarantee that. Maybe a palace there and a palace in Ctesiphon will do justice. Let me also suggest Bisotun (near Ecbatana) for a WoW, as it was a very important place for the Achaemenian Persians and the Seleucid Greeks, and there are many inscriptions and carvings of immense historical and archaeological value.
If you agree with my suggestions, I'll do what I can do get you detailed descriptions and icons.

	29-10-2002 02:37									#40
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Around this time Sicily was the "Granary of Rome" (later Egypt would fulfill that function). So you might consider renaming the Pyramid Wonder and placing it somewhere on Sicily. A different Wonder could be used to represent the Pyramids in Egypt.

If Ptolemy's "War on the Pirates" is part of the scenario, you could even tie the two things together. By the time Ptolemy was given this mission, Piracy was totally out of control, Rome was practically starving, and many merchants had been driven to the brink of ruin. In fact you might be able to tie the Pirate War to another Wonder such as "Smiths", since that will add cash to the Roman Economy. So you have a couple options there.

	29-10-2002 03:12									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Kull Around this time Sicily was the "Granary of Rome" (later Egypt would fulfill that function). So you might consider renaming the Pyramid Wonder and placing it somewhere on Sicily. A different Wonder could be used to represent the Pyramids in Egypt.

Since Egypt was called a Nyle's gift, you can use Hoover Dam to represent it , and replace Pyramids in Sicily... or viceversa rename it Latomie and let Pyramids stay in Egypt, since Sicily - and southern Italy, too - was an higly developed manufacturing area at this time....

PS Latomie were Siracusa's stone caves, used by Siracusa's tyrants as opposers' jails.

	29-10-2002 16:05									#42
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http://webpages.charter.net/brueggeman

A couple of webpages about Pharsalus battle - and a little more infos...

	29-10-2002 16:14									#43
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whoops... Roman Legionarius, civil war period - Cesarian Army, i believe...

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	29-10-2002 19:15									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Prometeus whoops... Roman Legionarius, civil war period - Cesarian Army, i believe...

Prom - I don't think legionaries would have worn an iron Gallic coolus helmet at this time - they would have worn bronze Montefortino helmets. Coolus and Imperial-Gallic helmets were adopted in the 1st cent. AD

PS I know I'm a sad bastard for knowing this

	29-10-2002 21:19									#45
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That's interesting. Some of the pics I've found show Roman legionaries of the Civil War with steel helmets and square shields.

	29-10-2002 22:03									#46
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I think the Romans adopted the rectangular scutum about 40 - 50 AD at the same time as they introduced segmented armour. The celts had used iron helmets of the port/agen type for many years before the Romans adapted them for their own use; the celts were far better iron workers than the Romans, who basically adopted Celtic armour (iron mail, scutum and montefortino and coolus helmets). In the first century BC Romans wore mail, bronze montefortino helmets and carried curved-sided shields.

	30-10-2002 00:05									#47
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quote: Originally posted by fairline Prom - I don't think legionaries would have worn an iron Gallic coolus helmet at this time - they would have worn bronze Montefortino helmets.

That's why i said it'as a cesarian legionarius - Caesar's legion were recruited in Cisalpine Gaul... and that province was full of Celts, believe me. The only thing a subdued tribe had to do to mantain peace with Rome, was to provide - often with a full weapon set - a stabled recuits' quota as auxiliaries for Roman garrisons and legions in the provincial area. No matter about recruits' quality... so often they represented the scum of their tribe. Was up to Roman officers to train them as soldiers, men like "Cedo alteram" tribunus.

Things changed, as you said, when Roman armies adopted the so-called "lorica segmentata" to resist against Parthian archers' attacks - Gaul's lorica wasn't good enough in doing so. this leaded to a more standardized and uniform equipment in Roman defensive weaponry.

quote: Originally posted by fairline In the first century BC Romans wore mail...and carried curved-sided shields...

... both mutuated and adapted from celtic populations that lived in northern Italy, as it's written on the side.
Sorry i should have it translated... a.C. is english B.C., so it was a late repubblican age legionaire, the transitional kind between "Montefortino" and "Imperial" helmet kind.

	30-10-2002 00:37									#48
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PS One of the Gaul's war at Caesar's orders was borrowed from Pompeus' army. It'as sent back to Pompeus right before the start of the Civil War, so no one of these Gaul veterans received the traditional donative.

	31-10-2002 07:43									#49
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Thanks for setting me straight, Prometeus.

I thought that Roman equipment became standardised after the Marian reforms? maybe the fabricae in Cisalpine Gaul produced iron helmets while the rest of Italy produced montefortino helmets - certainly all the sources I've read state that iron helmets were adopted during Augustus' reign. Maybe I should change the graphic I did for Techumseh of a cesarian legionary. Were all Ceasar's legions Celtic?

	31-10-2002 18:14									#50
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quote: Originally posted by fairline Thanks for setting me straight, Prometeus. I thought that Roman equipment became standardised after the Marian reforms? maybe the fabricae in Cisalpine Gaul produced iron helmets while the rest of Italy produced montefortino helmets - certainly all the sources I've read state that iron helmets were adopted during Augustus' reign. Maybe I should change the graphic I did for Techumseh of a cesarian legionary. Were all Ceasar's legions Celtic?

My sources starts talking about that kind of helmets from Perugia's war period.

I don't think, it's just a matter of pixels here for civ, tecumseh will be able to erase a couple of them ( i hope ).

Even if these legions were settled on northern italy, there were a lot of Italics into them. After Boi were whiped out of Cispadanian planes, their homeland was seized int hundreds and hundreds of small possessions, assigned to Italics or non celtic local populations ( into Cisalpine Gaul were included several Celto-raetian tribes, such as Orobii, Insubres as daediticii, not to forgot about Veneti and Cenomanians as free allies, and the so often rebel Ligures, plus Etruscans and Umbrians )... Making proportions 2 Caesarians every 7 were Celts for blood, mainly enlisted from Cenomanians.

	04-11-2002 07:21									#51
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With the last of the units due to arrivie shortly (thanks again Fairlane), the thing is pretty close to being done. Can anyone help me with flags, banners, etc. for the various civs? I have vague ideas for the Romans and Gauls, but no clue about Parthia, Ptolemaic Egypt or Armenia (barbarian). Suggestions for any or all would be very helpful.

	04-11-2002 22:39									#52
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I've done a bit of research on this to complete the leader units, Techumseh.

Ptolemaic: Eagle perched on a thunderbolt, colours not known

Parthian: the army carried draco standards (dragons head with a 'windsock' body); coins generally show an archer or horse as a national symbol. Colours not known

Gauls: the cockeral is a common theme on standards.

Rome: the army carried the famous eagle standards whilst other well known symbols would be SPQR or winged Victory, both gold on a red ground.

Armenia: I found this symbol:

Attachment: artsivner.gif
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	05-11-2002 03:12									#53
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quote: Originally posted by fairline Parthian: the army carried draco standards (dragons head with a 'windsock' body); coins generally show an archer or horse as a national symbol. Colours not known Gauls: the cockeral is a common theme on standards.

Parthians: "feudal" landlord's auxiliaries carried their commander in chief colours - one for Suren's family, one for Gew's, and so on. Unfortunately these colours seems to be individual ones.

Gauls used a lot horses and boars on their "buccinae", but Livius mentioned once that Insubrians "removed their sacred insigna from their own tribal temple" in Mediolanum, and that these "insigna" were "untouchable", made of other tribes' gold tribute, and marked with their war goddess' symbols. But he never mentioned shape or gave a simbols' description.

PS I just remebered that because recently, under the old spanish wall round, it'as found a Celtic nemeton of unusual proportions. Maybe it'as their war goddess' temple... why don't you use that Irish goddess... you know... the Morrigan, yeah... symbol ?

	05-11-2002 04:10									#54
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What's a Morrigan?

	05-11-2002 05:18									#55
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quote: Originally posted by fairline What's a Morrigan?

It's like a "Mulligan", except with Human Heads instead of Golf Balls.....

	06-11-2002 01:35									#56
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Finished! Well, almost

I think this is everything you requested, Techumseh, with the exeception of Cleopatra in a chariot. I'm going to be out of town for a while, so maybe someone else can have a go. Alternatively, there are a few female units by Erwan that fit the bill.

BTW, the Celtic leader symbol is supposed to be a wild boar. Maybe if you squint you can just about make it out

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	06-11-2002 01:51									#57
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http://www.tarot-decks.com/morrigan.htm

	06-11-2002 01:56									#58
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Clèo Civ3 style.

Attachment: cleopatra_lg.gif
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	06-11-2002 02:27									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Prometeus Clèo Civ3 style.

mmm.......not quite what I had in mind Prom

	06-11-2002 02:31									#60
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Neither I...