14-11-2002 07:09									#421
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quote: Originally posted by finbar As I recall, it was a minor case of blackmail - I threatened to let the world know your middle name is Jeb.

[predictable response]
ssshhh.. [/predictable response]

	14-11-2002 07:12									#422
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quote: Originally posted by finbar England is only ever a fair weather friend to France, Tamerlin.

As far as Rugby is concerned Havak and I are obvious allies against the tyranny of the SH, the tempests we have successfully crossed together are the testimony of our indestructible unity.

**Doesn't this qualifies me for an appointment as a Minister of Propaganda**

quote: OTOH, our agreement on the matter signals the birth of a long and great Franco-Australian relationship, the hallmark of which shall be mutual respect, support...

Ok, but don't count on this when Australia faces England, Ireland and, of course, France.

quote: ...and slagging off of Clive Woodward's petites Anglaises.

Only when England faces France.

quote: Hey Havak - do you detect the same subtext of guilt that I detect? *finbar decides his diplomatic skills and commitment to international peace and goodwill qualifies him to be the next Secretary General of the United Nations*

Undisputable try, no guilt possible.

quote: But a dummy runner doesn't have be ahead of the ball. The point of dummy runners is to create confusion in the defence's mind - which way will the ball go? The dummy runners can be behind the ball and still create the confusion.

If the dummy runner is not ahead of the ball and the ball is not passed behind his back to another player in the line, I have no problem with the dummy runner, it becomes tactical.

	14-11-2002 07:14									#423
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Yeah, and I think ravagon brings up a good point about England's spirits being high after a win against NZ. I will still be surised if Oz lose by more than 14 points though.

If they did, I would be something other than surprised. Starts with "s", ends in "l", and four vowels, a "c" and a "d" in between. Look, I have my fingers crossed for a much improved Wallaby performance, but the reality is that it will, obviously, take a big turnaround on both sides for it to be close.

	14-11-2002 07:35									#424
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin As far as Rugby is concerned Havak and I are obvious allies against the tyranny of the SH, the tempests we have successfully crossed together are the testimony of our indestructible unity.

Mmmm. Let They Who Are Joined By A Chunnel Let No Man Put Apart?

quote: Ok, but don't count on this when Australia faces England, Ireland and, of course, France.

So I can count on your support against Italy in a couple of weeks time?

quote: If the dummy runner is not ahead of the ball and the ball is not passed behind his back to another player in the line, I have no problem with the dummy runner, it becomes tactical.

Mmmm. Fair enough, but we'll have to agree to disagree. I think it's a problem when obstruction enters the picture. Havak's point is that SH refs don't police the obstruction aspect of it - which, sometimes, they don't - but I think that's a different argument.

	14-11-2002 14:10									#425
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quote: I thought that would get a response from you...

Damn – got caught by a sucker punch again.

quote: but the Wallabies will definitely be more motivated to beat England than Ireland.

Everyone is. I still don’t know why.

On paper this should be a big win for England – is anyone buying that?

quote: I've never heard so much nonsense. I say again - if a decoy runner causes obstruction he breaks the law.

I would suggest you pay more attention to Jones and O’Neil when they want laws changing then – that’s when the nonsense really flows.

Just joking!

Whatever our respective feelings there is a very solid chance the IRB will outlaw decoys, however hard you think it might be to apply. A back division as talented as the ABs doesn’t need such edges anyway.

quote: In his dreams. He can't coach for dummy runners because he hasn't got an organised, integrated backline.

Fair comment. But the point helps his charm offensive. It’s very true we couldn’t use that tactic Saturday, but did that lessen the worth or quality of our tries or increase it?

Incidentally I watched the highlights again last night and Wilko could not have popped the ball for Robinson as he claimed – you were quite right. The Howlett try remain a beauty of course but the more I watch Cohen’s try the more I wonder about the AB defence – were they asleep?

I think on balance you were right – lets save the law change stuff for the dead zone times.

By the way:

1.I admire the guy as a great player, nothing more.
2.I have paid for it so I am sure going to drink it all.
3.Too close to the truth for me to laugh too much

quote: the hallmark of which shall be mutual respect, support and slagging off of Clive Woodward's petites Anglaises.

As the French visit Twickenham in the new year I would be disappointed if the lads did not join the Finbar coalition for a weekend.

quote: Hey Havak - do you detect the same subtext of guilt that I detect?

There is a hint of it there…

And I would much rather have you as SecGen than O’Neil at least.

quote: The dummy runners can be behind the ball and still create the confusion.

Genuine question. Were they always behind the ball on Saturday?

quote: Tamerlin - he's dissembling. He doesn't need to have seen something to form a judgement. (See below)

Well that’s true enough – I am English after all…

quote: Thus he didn't see the incident but it doesn't stop him from passing judgement.

..but whilst you were right about the pint glass I did actually see the incident and, like a good player is supposed to, I had to accept the refs call on it. The fact that gave us the win is neither here nor there.

quote: The only threat to England is the fact that David Campese has tipped them. *Havak wakes screaming in the night*

Nooooooo! Tell me that’s a joke? Please?

quote: BTW, we're rapidly heading towards the 500 mark. About time we cast around for another title?

Rugby – we all love England!??

quote: Say 15 points to Canada?

I’m not convinced Wales are that good to be honest – seriously.

Also if it helps I’m not too worried about betting on the England-Australia game. I’m just interested in the result this time. And no Dan Luger will not take part (nor will Balshaw who popped the ball – two years is a long time in rugby?).

quote: I think ravagon brings up a good point about England's spirits being high after a win against NZ

The camp is being very reserved and extremely respectful (Dawson praising the Aus halfies to the rafters etc). Maybe they are learning the lessons of five years of talking up only to choke? (you see I do know my own sides faults really)

	14-11-2002 15:49									#426
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A choice quote from Jones:

quote: "We just hope Paul Honiss (Saturday's official) just referees to the laws."

How about that coming from an SH coach???

To get it in it's proper context see this link

By the way - as it is the lamentable Honiss Satruday it has to be a straight win scenario. There is no way I'll bet with an Aussie start whilst that shambolic ref helms the show. What that means in essence is I will not take part in the betting on this game - the guy is one of the worst international refs I have seen in recent years. he makes McHugh look good.

	14-11-2002 16:52									#427
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quote: Originally posted by finbar So I can count on your support against Italy in a couple of weeks time?

Yes, I'am more and more disappointed by the behavior of the Italian players which often forget to play Rugby when they face a major team and limit their game to offsides, punches and other provocations in order to avoid a larger defeats.

quote: Havak's point is that SH refs don't police the obstruction aspect of it - which, sometimes, they don't - but I think that's a different argument.

Once again Havak is right and the SH referees often forget to police what I consider being the most dangerous practice for the future of Rugby after the prohibition to push in the closed scrums some are advocating.

	14-11-2002 18:19									#428
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quote: Originally posted by Havak On paper this should be a big win for England – is anyone buying that?

Moi!

quote: Whatever our respective feelings there is a very solid chance the IRB will outlaw decoys

Rather than worry about something worth worrying about - like standardising yellow and red cards; like banning Butch James for life; et cetera, et cetera.

quote: Fair comment. But the point helps his charm offensive. It’s very true we couldn’t use that tactic Saturday, but did that lessen the worth or quality of our tries or increase it?

It had no impact on the tries you scored. If your backs were organised enough to run decoys, you might have scored more!

quote: Genuine question. Were they always behind the ball on Saturday?

I honestly don't remember.

quote: Nooooooo! Tell me that’s a joke? Please?

Nuh. Kiss of Death Campo strikes again.

quote: Also if it helps I’m not too worried about betting on the England-Australia game. I’m just interested in the result this time.

Me too, actually. A bit like last weekend.

	14-11-2002 18:20									#429
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quote: Yes, I'am more and more disappointed by the behavior of the Italian players which often forget to play Rugby when they face a major team and limit their game to offsides, punches and other provocations in order to avoid a larger defeats.

The problem is I think that their domestic refereeing level wouldn't meet even the amateur standards in our various countries. It leaves them completely unprepared for facing top level referees.

You can see it as they play - they are simply not able to adjust at all.

Tamerlin we had better leave uncontested scrums for a quieter time. Not least because Finbar asked me to cite proof and I *ahem* conveniently forgot to do so.

On a different note I am afraid I think this countryman of Caligastia's is a disgrace to the shirt and the nation. read more anti-English drivel here

Still I trust the French will make him look what he is - the world's fourth best stand off. And lets face it for an AB fourth is abject failure.

As you read the latest rant please consider two things - as the coach of a major international side Woodward is allowed to ask for clarification from the IRB on points of law.

And secondly Jones, who attacked S-12 on this occassion and produced an anti-English rant is damn well WELSH!!!!!

Can you tell Mehrts has annoyed me?

	14-11-2002 18:47									#430
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Tamerlin we had better leave uncontested scrums for a quieter time. Not least because Finbar asked me to cite proof and I *ahem* conveniently forgot to do so.

I plead guilty on this one too, I have thrown away the proof (last summer's "Midi Olympique") as I'am leaving for a new appartment in the days to come.

But the pitiful attitude of the SA coach and skipper asking the referee that scrums don't be push anymore (13' of the second half) while they were blatantly dominated by our forwards is a real matter of concern.

	14-11-2002 18:59									#431
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Will you two knock it off and get back to work!? I was just about to go to bed!

quote: Originally posted by Havak Tamerlin we had better leave uncontested scrums for a quieter time. Not least because Finbar asked me to cite proof and I *ahem* conveniently forgot to do so.

And I bet Tamerlin's tossed it out because he's moving to a new apartment or something!

*checks Tamerlin's post, discovers he is, in fact, moving to a new apartment, calls himself clairvoyant*

quote: On a different note I am afraid I think this countryman of Caligastia's is a disgrace to the shirt and the nation. read more anti-English drivel here

What a complete and utter goose. OTOH, I thought Eddie's line was a ripper.

quote: Can you tell Mehrts has annoyed me?

Yes, now get back to work and let me get to bed!

	14-11-2002 19:01									#432
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin I plead guilty on this one too, I have thrown away the proof (last summer's "Midi Olympique") as I'am leaving for a new appartment in the days to come.

See? Proof that I'm clairvoyant!

quote: But the pitiful attitude of the SA coach and skipper asking the referee that scrums don't be push anymore (13' of the second half) while they were blatantly dominated by our forwards is a real matter of concern.

Were there no bona fide Bok front rowers fit and available for the scrum? Or was it a scam?

	14-11-2002 19:14									#433
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quote: Originally posted by finbar See? Proof that I'm clairvoyant!

quote: Were there no bona fide Bok front rowers fit and available for the scrum? Or was it a scam?

Two props were injured (true for one of them but for the other one... ) and the SA skipper suggested the scrums should not been pushed anymore because two hookers were now in the front row though the laws of the game call for five players out of the twenty two to be able to play in the front row.

As they were on the way to a severe defeat and were clearly dominated in the scrums I'am convinced it was a scam.

Pitiful and disappointing after all the praises and the so-called Springbok's renewal and revolution.

	14-11-2002 19:16									#434
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quote: Originally posted by Havak On paper this should be a big win for England – is anyone buying that?

For some reason I would be feeling a sense of impending doom if I were an England fan...it goes hand-in-hand with outer confidence.

quote: Whatever our respective feelings there is a very solid chance the IRB will outlaw decoys, however hard you think it might be to apply. A back division as talented as the ABs doesn’t need such edges anyway.

What are your thoughts on "decoy runners" Havak? Surely if they are behind the ball carrier there is no law being broken.

	14-11-2002 19:28									#435
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Finbar (who is hopefully fast asleep) picked it. My primary concern is the number of times Decoy runners seem to cause obstruction.

I am afraid the talented men in black do manage to contrive this a little too often.

I am suspicious about the Boks against France. It alwasy seems a little convenient when a team being mauled in the scrum suddenly finds it has no fit experienced front rowers to bring on at need.

I wonder if they will try this with Scotland?

	14-11-2002 19:28									#436
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quote: Originally posted by Havak On a different note I am afraid I think this countryman of Caligastia's is a disgrace to the shirt and the nation. read more anti-English drivel here Still I trust the French will make him look what he is - the world's fourth best stand off. And lets face it for an AB fourth is abject failure. As you read the latest rant please consider two things - as the coach of a major international side Woodward is allowed to ask for clarification from the IRB on points of law. And secondly Jones, who attacked S-12 on this occassion and produced an anti-English rant is damn well WELSH!!!!! Can you tell Mehrts has annoyed me?

It makes good reading though.

I love Eddie's quote: "Mate, England are the best side in the world, so they know how to do everything."

I think if you got Woodward and Mehrtens in a room together they would probably communicate like adults. Its easy to shoot your mouth off when there are thousands of mile between you and the person you're insulting. Kind of like on Apolyton.

	14-11-2002 19:35									#437
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Finbar (who is hopefully fast asleep) picked it. My primary concern is the number of times Decoy runners seem to cause obstruction.

Then penalise obstruction. I don't know how it would be possible to outlaw decoy runners anyway, it would make the ref's job a lot harder, thats for sure.

quote: I am afraid the talented men in black do manage to contrive this a little too often.

Did you notice a lot of it in the Tri-nations? I didn't. Perhaps there was more of it in the England game because the ref was letting it go.

	14-11-2002 20:26									#438
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quote: Did you notice a lot of it in the Tri-nations? I didn't. Perhaps there was more of it in the England game because the ref was letting it go.

To be fair no I didn't. Finbar might have?

I definitely spotted several instances of it last weekend - but then I was both thoroughly motivated and looking for it.

	14-11-2002 21:13									#439
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I think the decoy runners will be hard to legifer (?) about because there are lots of non-obstruction cases when you could look like a decoy (like long passes which jump over one or two players - are these decoys? do they become so if they keep running after the ball flies over their heads?). I do agree, however, that obstructions are far too common. Considering it is a hooker's best practice to hinder his opponent hooker's run against the scrum half after a lineout, there is a lot of job to be done to get rid of all these obstructions...

As for the SA scrums, it is really a scam. I find it ridiculous to pretend an international-level hooker couldn't play prop. I remember Laurent Rodriguez (ex France number 8, now Biarritz coach) playing prop in a match after there was no prop replacement left. He survived. Plus, the Bok hookers probably did play prop once or twice in their youth, and if they are fit to play hooker, they can probably play prop too (just don't tell my coach I ever said that).

	14-11-2002 21:27									#440
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I have read the Article Havak submitted to our fair appreciation. Perhaps am I wrong but it seems this Gentleman called Andrew Merthens is a bit biased towards England and our fellow englishmen. Has he been recently humiliated because of someone related to England ?

Is he lacking fair play ?

BTW, about the weather and its influence on the game, a former french international and coach said bad weather was only an excuse for some coaches and players to avoid playing an ambitious game.

A curious thing, the players said the ball was very slippery during the France-SA game. Used to this infamous game called S***** the managers of the "Stade Vélodrome de Marseille" had actually watered the field an hour before the match. This would partly explain some ot the handling errors...

	14-11-2002 22:39									#441
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin I have read the Article Havak submitted to our fair appreciation. Perhaps am I wrong but it seems this Gentleman called Andrew Merthens is a bit biased towards England and our fellow englishmen. Has he been recently humiliated because of someone related to England ?

He just seems to be a poor loser.

Also, just to let you know, that would be "biased against England", not "towards".

	15-11-2002 03:53									#442
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin Two props were injured (true for one of them but for the other one... ) and the SA skipper suggested the scrums should not been pushed anymore because two hookers were now in the front row though the laws of the game call for five players out of the twenty two to be able to play in the front row.

The ref was wrong. Any bona fide front rower is considered capable of filling any of the front row positions to make for a contested scrum. It happened here in the last season or so in a S12 match - the back-up hooker was called onto the field to contest the scrum as a prop. He left the field again after the scrum was played. Only when there are no bona fide front rowers available to fill a front row spot should the scrum be uncontested for safety reasons.

In fact, I'm sure Havak is waiting with bated breath to regale us with stories of how he was summoned from the bench to lead the pack to glory in a time of dire emergency.

	15-11-2002 07:51									#443
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin I have read the Article Havak submitted to our fair appreciation. Perhaps am I wrong but it seems this Gentleman called Andrew Merthens is a bit biased towards England and our fellow englishmen. Has he been recently humiliated because of someone related to England ? Is he lacking fair play ?

Just reading through that gave me the impression that said comments weren't actually intended for public consumption.
Is the "Guardian" known for such articles by any chance?

I'm also sure I saw another article earlier this week regarding Mehrtens "hitting back" against some Northern Hemispherian or other after said individual publically bashed the NZ use of decoy runners ...
Somehow though I just can't seem to visualize any NH supporter saying such a thing. Nor can I quite see how the two might be related.
[Something to do with Kiwi's being blind to that which is right in front of their faces, if I refer back to a certain comment a couple of pages ago]

All said and done though, Mehrtens has been around for long enough that he ought to know better than to vent such frustrations in public. Rather bad form all told...

	15-11-2002 08:07									#444
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Rugby – we all love England!??

I really rather like that one.
How about keeping that aside for the one after next?

	15-11-2002 08:27									#445
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Which one sounds better to you guys? -

Rugby - One game to rule them all

or

Rugby - One sport to rule them all

	15-11-2002 09:17									#446
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Hopefully rugby training will start over here soon. Last year we started in January, but maybe we can start a little earlier this year, it would help first time players.

	15-11-2002 11:31									#447
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Which one sounds better to you guys? - Rugby - One game to rule them all or Rugby - One sport to rule them all

The former is the lesser of the two evils.

Because sport is sport is sport. Rugby is a game.

	15-11-2002 11:35									#448
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quote: Originally posted by Bearcat Hopefully rugby training will start over here soon. Last year we started in January, but maybe we can start a little earlier this year, it would help first time players.

How far north is the game played there? It would be mighty mighty cold if you were too far north.

	15-11-2002 11:38									#449
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quote: Originally posted by ravagon All said and done though, Mehrtens has been around for long enough that he ought to know better than to vent such frustrations in public. Rather bad form all told...

Andrew Mehrtens is famous for his boorish outbursts. He's the Kiwi David Campese. Though much less talented in the rugby department.

	15-11-2002 14:19									#450
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Well, the Wallaby team selection suggests it's all or nothing on Saturday night with the ball to be thrown around a lot. They've brought in back-up 5/8 Elton Flatley to play at inside centre alongside Larkham, moved Dan Herbert back to where he belongs at outside centre, and Stirling Mortlock to the wing. That, in theory, gives the Wallabies two playmakers - two 5/8s - alongside each other. I only hope they don't get in each other's way. Regardless, Eddie says the entire backline will be given free rein to go where they like and do what they like. All of which - if it comes off - should make for a very entertaining game.

The front row has also been strengthened with Bill Young and Jeremy Paul's return - providing Paul is 100% fit - and young Dan Vickerman has been handed a huge challenge in the second row alongside Justin Harrison.

I can't wait for Saturday night. It's going to be fascinating.