08-11-2002 19:01									#331
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quote: Originally posted by LDiCesare Choosing 6 1/2 for the England/ABs has been made in the obvious attempt to make it hard for me to decide who I'd back.

Picked it like a scab! (Now there's a colloquialism for Tamerlin to ponder over! )

quote: I said I needed 7 to back the ABs so I'll bet 10 civ gold on England.

Gotcha.

	08-11-2002 19:08									#332
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quote: Originally posted by Havak I've just checked the officials. Jonathan Kaplan as ref?

He's famous for being the SH's most pedantic referee so the afternoon air will ring with the non-stop tweet of his whistle thus satisfying a NH crowd to whom the non-stop tweet of a ref's whistle is sweet music.

	08-11-2002 19:18									#333
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quote: Originally posted by Havak To be fair they also said if you live with our forwards for twenty minutes they would make you favourites – unless it started to rain then. It was one of the Walkabout bar events – Aussie theme pubs across the UK – next week the chain hosts three Wallaby greats for a Q&A in the same vein and the week after three Boks. Nice idea – anything that supports the game is good after all.

Yeah, I've been to those Walkabout places a few times. Mostly the one in Covent Gardens, but also Shepherd's Bush. Great place for a homesick kiwi, even if it is mostly aussie. Which is your local?

	08-11-2002 19:26									#334
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The one I visit most often? Sheffield in actual fact.

I dislike theme pubs generally - prefering traditonal English public houses.

The current rugger nights are all in the Shepherds bush franchise.

Good luck to your boys tomorrow. Once we get this game out the way we can get back to real business - picking on the Wallabies.

	08-11-2002 19:27									#335
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quote: Originally posted by Havak You know it makes sense. Lets hope we all get a slice of Caligastias gold then.

If you do, each slice will be tiny.

	08-11-2002 19:34									#336
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Good luck to your boys tomorrow. Once we get this game out the way we can get back to real business - picking on the Wallabies.

Good luck to your lads also.

	08-11-2002 19:35									#337
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quote: Originally posted by finbar He's famous for being the SH's most pedantic referee so the afternoon air will ring with the non-stop tweet of his whistle thus satisfying a NH crowd to whom the non-stop tweet of a ref's whistle is sweet music.

	08-11-2002 19:42									#338
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I like him already!!!!

	09-11-2002 03:40									#339
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Good luck to your lads also.

:Puke: !

BTW, we forgot about Wales -v- Fiji at the Millennium Stadium.

Does anyone care?

No? Thought not.

	09-11-2002 13:39									#340
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Good morning chaps! It's match day! Actually the morning here in London is rather on the cloudy side, but according to the forecast it should be mostly dry today with some brighter spells.

For the sake of keeping this mini-civ-gold-economy ticking over, can I put 40, no what the hell 50 gold on the AB's please? Here's hoping that Taine will manage to harness the enthusiasm in the AB squad to make up for what they lack in experience.

And in case anyone's wondering, I'll be sitting in the east middle block, row 60 seat 20 at Twickenham this afternoon.

As for the other games, 20 on Ireland (I could never bring myself to back the Aussies), and 20 on the Boks please. If Finbar is going to take the French poster's gold, I'll have half of it thank you very much!

	09-11-2002 15:18									#341
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quote: Originally posted by finbar He's famous for being the SH's most pedantic referee so the afternoon air will ring with the non-stop tweet of his whistle thus satisfying a NH crowd to whom the non-stop tweet of a ref's whistle is sweet music.

And some think it's better to hear that than being deaf.

	09-11-2002 15:28									#342
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quote: Originally posted by Andydog And in case anyone's wondering, I'll be sitting in the east middle block, row 60 seat 20 at Twickenham this afternoon.

Lucky guy, I've never been to Twickenham, I hope I will come one day for a six-nations England-France game.

It must be fun to hear the "Marseillaise" at Twickenham.

quote: If Finbar is going to take the French poster's gold, I'll have half of it thank you very much!

	10-11-2002 04:56									#343
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quote: Originally posted by Andydog Good morning chaps! It's match day! Actually the morning here in London is rather on the cloudy side, but according to the forecast it should be mostly dry today with some brighter spells. For the sake of keeping this mini-civ-gold-economy ticking over, can I put 40, no what the hell 50 gold on the AB's please? Here's hoping that Taine will manage to harness the enthusiasm in the AB squad to make up for what they lack in experience. And in case anyone's wondering, I'll be sitting in the east middle block, row 60 seat 20 at Twickenham this afternoon. As for the other games, 20 on Ireland (I could never bring myself to back the Aussies), and 20 on the Boks please. If Finbar is going to take the French poster's gold, I'll have half of it thank you very much!

I've placed your bets retrospectively. Or retroactively, as Havak prefers to put it. He watches too many re-runs of "Lost In Space".

	10-11-2002 04:57									#344
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin And some think it's better to hear that than being deaf.

Until, of course, the incessant tweeting deafens you and you can't hear it anymore.

	10-11-2002 06:03									#345
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Cripes. Talk about dedication to the cause. Had 6 people over for dinner last night. Spent all day slaving over the stove. The last guests left at 1.15am, just in time for me to tune in to the Wallabies -v- Ireland kick off at 1.30am, followed by the delayed telecast of England -v- All Blacks which finished at 5.00am. Staggered off to bed, woken up by the dogs at 8am demanding to be taken down to the park. :massive, massive yawn and stretch:

1. Ireland 18 -d- Wallabies 9

The Paddys simply deserved to win it. They played the terrible conditions so much better than the Wallabies with guts and determination, some good skills, terrific tactical kicking by their #10 and fierce defence. The Wallabies had a better second half with some well-constructed attack phases, but sloppy handling errors - which plagued them all through the game - cost them several outstanding try opportunities. The penalty count against them was pretty much deserved - they knew the NZ ref's methods and preferences from SH matches and infringed regardless. Fools. The bright spots - he says optimistically - were Adam Freir's first start at hooker with a very mobile, skilled performance, and the fact that David Giffen got through the game and showed some of his old skills.

Just to add to the Wallaby tour misery, Owen Finnegan dislocated his shoulder 15 minutes into the game. I'm not sure who they have left - fit - to select over the coming weeks. Regardless, unless the Wallabies solve the sloppy handling problems when in strong attacking positions, they're wasting their time turning up next week against England. The England team I saw last night will crucify them.

Edit. It turns out Owen Finnegan has dislocated the shoulder that has already been reconstructed. Minimum six months on the sidelines, possibly the end of his career.

Speaking of which -

2. England 31 -d- All Blacks 28

Very entertaining match with some high class rugby. Clive Woodward must be thanking God for Jonny Wilkinson. One of the best #10 performances I've seen for a long time - his chip and re-gather to score the try was pure magic - and England would have been rooted without him. The ABs obviously did lift to make up for the lack of experience, but it was the old hands - Umaga, Howlett, Lomu, Mehtrens in the second half, etc - who lifted the most to do the most damage. Some of their backline work was magical, blowing holes in the English defence. OTOH, no defence in world rugby would contain some of those backs in that sort of form. The England backs, by comparison, seemed to lack imagination and/or invention. But it's a tough comparison. Both teams would crucify the Wallabies in the situation in which they currently find themselves.

Havak - you'll be gladdened to hear that, prior to the match, Phil Kearns called England "probably the world's best team - or, if not, right up there". BTW, I was particularly impressed by your #6, a Leicester chap, apparently.

3. France 30 -d- Springboks 10

All I've heard is there were lots of penalties and goals. I look forward to the reports by our local correspondents.

4. Scotland 37 -d- Romania 10

Mmmm. I didn't even know this match was being played. Judging from the scoreline, Scotland didn't know either, it seems.

5. Wales 58 - d- Fiji 14

Another one for the stats sheet.

Now I have to settle down to sorting out the Civ Gold wins and losses.

Prior to a nap.

Last edited by finbar on 10-11-2002 at 07:59

	10-11-2002 06:23									#346
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The final betting was as follows:

Wallabies -v- Ireland (7 1/2 points start for the Irish)
Andydog 20 - Ireland

Havak 10 - Ireland

LDiCesares 10 - Ireland

finbar 20 - Wallabies

Tamerlin 10 - Wallabies

England -v- All Blacks (6 1/2 points start for the ABs)
Andydog 50 - ABs

Caligastia 20 - ABs

finbar 10 - England

Havak 10 - England

Tamerlin 10 - England

LDiCesares 10 - England

France -v- Springboks (No margin, a straight win/lose bet)
Havak 10 - France

LDiCesares 10 - France

Tamerlin 10 - France

Andydog 20 - Springboks

finbar 20 - Springboks (Just to make sure of a pot of Civ Gold! )

With the wins (including your original bet) as follows:

Wallabies -v- Ireland
Andydog 35

Havak 17.5

LDiCesares 17.5

England -v- All Blacks
Andydog 78.5

Caligastia 31.5

France -v- Springboks
Havak 23.3

LDiCesares 23.3

Tamerlin 23.3

So our updated Bank A/c (after last night) reads as follows:

Andydog 186 + 111.5 - 20 = 277.5
Caligastia 37 + 31.5 = 68.5
finbar 123.5 - 50 = 73.5
Havak 60 + 40.8 - 10 = 90.8
LDiCesares 111 + 40.8 - 10 = 141.8
Mickeyj 143.5
NeoStar 114
ravagon 94
redbull 80
Tamerlin 59 + 23.3 - 20 = 62.3

Any miscalculations are entirely due to my lack of sleep.

Last edited by finbar on 10-11-2002 at 07:49

	10-11-2002 06:42									#347
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quote: Originally posted by finbar 1. Ireland 18 -d- Wallabies 9

Where are the Aussies.

quote: 2. England 31 -d- All Blacks 28

The margin, the margin !

I told you a simple Win/Lose was appropriate for this game...

A friend of mine told me the match was great.

quote: 3. France 30 -d- Springboks 10

The match was not very interesting, the two teams made many handling errors (especially the Springboks) and the South-African players proved, as usual, tough (sometimes too tough, some yellow cards would have been needed more than once). The SA half-scrum and the fly-half obviously don't know what the word imagination means nor what directing the game means. A very disappointing performance from the SA players especially after what you all have said on this forum after their last games in the Tri-Nations.

The game turned to a masquerade at the 13th minute of the second half when the referee asked the french players not to push the scrums anymore because the SA front row was no more comprised of two professional props, an injured prop and some clever coaching from SA made for the trick. Of course, the Springboks were not what we could call the dominant side in the scrums played so far. Ridiculous !

At least one thing doesn't change : "Butcher" James deserves its nickname.

	10-11-2002 07:54									#348
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin Where are the Aussies.

Fast running out of fit players and making far too many errors.

quote: The margin, the margin ! I told you a simple Win/Lose was appropriate for this game...

I shall never disagree with you again.

quote: A friend of mine told me the match was great.

Your friend has impeccable judgement.

quote: At least one thing doesn't change : "Butcher" James deserves its nickname.

Still at it with his shoulder charges?

	10-11-2002 16:28									#349
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quote: Originally posted by finbar Fast running out of fit players and making far too many errors.

Tired players in a bad day, OK ! My quote is a reference to a common song that can be heard on the french fields when a team is dominated, the supporters sing "And where are they, and where are they, and where are they the (name of the inhabitants of the town or area the team is coming from)" which gives something like :

Et ils sont oů,
Et ils sont oů,
Et ils sont oů les (nom)

This song can sometimes be funny but I don't like it as it is rather cruel for the losing team which more often than not does not deserve it.

quote: I shall never disagree with you again.

Tamerlin read this sentence distrustfully.

quote: Your friend has impeccable judgement.

He has just seen the match.

quote: Still at it with his shoulder charges?

A few seconds after he came as a replacement, he charged Fabien Galthié with his shoulders, obviously the ball was not what he was aiming at.

	10-11-2002 17:16									#350
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin Tired players in a bad day, OK !

That's being very very kind. Apart from a lot of injuries - one player has already come home, and another will probably come home this week - their cohesion and coordination is letting them down. Maybe it's because last week's Test against the Pumas was their first match in nearly 3 months but they've certainly trained long and hard enough to be doing better than they're doing. In saying that, I don't want to take any credit away from Ireland - they played the game of their lives. They jumped the Wallabies at the start of the match and never let up.

quote: This song can sometimes be funny but I don't like it as it is rather cruel for the losing team which more often than not does not deserve it.

You're a kind-hearted person, Tamerlin. A bit like me.

quote: Tamerlin read this sentence distrustfully.

As the saying goes - "Oh ye of little faith".

quote: A few seconds after he came as a replacement, he charges Fabien Galthié with his shoulders, obviously the ball was not what he was aiming at.

He does that all the time! I've seen refs warn him and warn him but nothing gets done about it! Surely one red card would tell him to learn how to tackle.

	10-11-2002 23:18									#351
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quote: A friend of mine told me the match was great.

It was truly superb - one of the best games of rugby I think England have ever played to be honest.

Though both teams had problems - I will go into that more tomorrow.

I also have to say the doomsayers were wrong - that was a team of players who are bang in form - and Taine was clearly devasted - he says he took the field fully expecting to win.

Oh yeah and I was right too - no margin was needed!!

I caght a fair bit of the Ireland game and I have to say conditions played the major part in the Wallabies losing - have you ever seen so much water on a pitch? That had to favour Ireland, though of course the boys did well to convert the advantage into the win.

The BBC summariser said one of the french tries was a candidate for try of the year - a shame I missed it on Sky.

	10-11-2002 23:43									#352
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quote: Originally posted by Havak It was truly superb - one of the best games of rugby I think England have ever played to be honest.

And this is the one I have missed.

quote: The BBC summariser said one of the french tries was a candidate for try of the year - a shame I missed it on Sky.

I'am rather proud to say the two french tries were scored by two players of the Stade Toulousain :

- Cédric Heymans (45')
- Vincent Clerc (76')

	11-11-2002 02:49									#353
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This Weekend = ONE OFF

What a surprise ... stupid Telegraph making a big deal of it. Ireland finally beat us when key players were out/injured But in all honesty I'm at a loss to explain the kicking...

As for the France/South Africa game - I'm looking forward to seeing your team now Tamerlin, maybe they'll be more WC surprises from them. That certainly wasn't the France that'd come to Australia a while ago.

Last edited by NeoStar on 11-11-2002 at 02:59

	11-11-2002 03:23									#354
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quote: Originally posted by NeoStar This Weekend = ONE OFF

I don't think it's that simple.

quote: What a surprise ... stupid Telegraph making a big deal of it. Ireland finally beat us when key players were out/injured But in all honesty I'm at a loss to explain the kicking...

Injuries aside, it was the way we played that is of concern. It was a very similar performance to the Tri-Nations game in arctic conditions in Christchurch. We couldn't then - and couldn't on Saturday night - do anything more than bring the ball inside and hit it up. We can't just be a fair weather, firm ground team. It's almost as if unpleasant conditions addle the Wallabies' brains and destroy their initiative - we had several overlaps set up on Saturday night that were ignored as the ball was brought back inside and we were crunched by the Irish defence. Add to that the overall sloppiness of the ball-handling and it was a sh*thouse performance.

quote: That certainly wasn't the France that'd come to Australia a while ago.

It's not. They're now at full strength and playing at home.

BTW, Eddie Jones came up with an interesting statistic yesterday. Apparently close to 80% of Tests are won by the home team. I wonder what that means.

	11-11-2002 03:49									#355
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quote: Originally posted by finbar Injuries aside, it was the way we played that is of concern. It was a very similar performance to the Tri-Nations game in arctic conditions in Christchurch. We couldn't then - and couldn't on Saturday night - do anything more than bring the ball inside and hit it up. We can't just be a fair weather, firm ground team. It's almost as if unpleasant conditions addle the Wallabies' brains and destroy their initiative - we had several overlaps set up on Saturday night that were ignored as the ball was brought back inside and we were crunched by the Irish defence. Add to that the overall sloppiness of the ball-handling and it was a sh*thouse performance.

Hmm I can actually see that comparison. What do you say the Wallabies should do? I suppose they should be playing abroad more often. When you say we're a fair weather/firm ground team that can't be helped seeing that's how Australia usually is.

quote: Originally posted by finbar It's not. They're now at full strength and playing at home. BTW, Eddie Jones came up with an interesting statistic yesterday. Apparently close to 80% of Tests are won by the home team. I wonder what that means.

That we have an 80% chance at the WC I like those odds.

Come on finbar - you knew that before. Besides the technical things, rugby crowds are right up there with the most vocal crowds in the world. Having been in a full Olympic mode Stadium AUSTRALIA (not the telecom company) during a game - they must have some influence.

	11-11-2002 03:58									#356
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quote: Originally posted by finbar BTW, Eddie Jones came up with an interesting statistic yesterday. Apparently close to 80% of Tests are won by the home team. I wonder what that means.

That you need to feel reassured.

	11-11-2002 04:34									#357
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin That you need to feel reassured.

You're getting too good at your second language!

But it's still an odd statistic. Surely home ground advantage can't count for that much.

	11-11-2002 04:50									#358
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quote: Originally posted by NeoStar What do you say the Wallabies should do? I suppose they should be playing abroad more often. When you say we're a fair weather/firm ground team that can't be helped seeing that's how Australia usually is.

I'm not sure where the problem lies. I doubt that it's player skills, per se, because there is plenty of skill in the team. I suspect that it has to be a combination of pre-match planning and on-field decision making.

On Saturday night, they knew the conditions they faced. Presumably the decision was made to use the tactics they did. But when their adopted tactics were constantly running into an Irish brick wall, there seemed to be no attempt to adapt. The Irish knew what was coming and played accordingly. Just as happened in the Christchurch match. On Saturday, it was the Irish #10's terrific kicking that killed us; in Christchurch it was Mehrtens doing exactly the same thing. Our dreadful discipline giving away so many penalties also, obviously, didn't help.

In fact, other options - running with the ball, exploiting overlaps - were ignored. I watched Stirling Mortlock ignore an unmarked Wendell Sailor outside him and carry the ball back infield, straight into the Irish defence. My thoughts on Wendell are well known, but he's in the team, for Christ sake, so use him. He touched the ball once or twice for the whole match.

I can only think our lack of adaptability comes down to leadership.

But I reiterate - the Irish played the game of their lives. It might be that nothing the Wallabies tried was going to beat them.

	11-11-2002 06:00									#359
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quote: Originally posted by finbar But it's still an odd statistic. Surely home ground advantage can't count for that much.

I don't think so, I'am one of the few considering that playing at home is a real advantage and that some teams (of which the Irish are) can transcend themselves when they are playing in front of their supporters in their stadium.

I don't know how it goes in the Southern Hemisphere and in Australia but in France and England (have you ever heard the crowd singing "swing low, sweet chariot") the supporters can heat the atmosphere to the point a kind of ecstasy can get hold of you (I have felt like this at least twice).

Imagine what the players can feel when they have to defend what they still consider as a sacred ground (the home field) in front of the said supporters.

	11-11-2002 09:49									#360
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I know what you mean. I've heard the singing but never experienced it first hand. It doesn't happen here. I remember discussing this with Havak once before. We have no tradition of that sort of singing here, possibly because the game has never been as big here as it is over there. It's a pity it doesn't happen here because it creates a wonderful atmosphere.