25-10-2002 01:32									#61
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DuckI, IIRC the whole point I was making is that you can either go to warmonger mode (all out) from the sav posted or a builder strat. I attemted to do a builder to show that you could in fact out produce them, if you are willing to do all the required micromanaging. War monger is more fun and you will be much farther along as it reduces the AI holdings, not so much as it increases yours. Those new lands are not real productive, but they were for them and now they are not.
As to leaders, I would never hold a leader for more than 1 or 2 turns while still at war. If I had a must have structure such as a wonder and it was farther away then 2 turns, I would take a chance on getting another or out building them. To me it is like have a pile of cash and putting it under the bed. It does not do much god there. I mean if it was just few turns maybe, but more than 10? Only if not at war.

	25-10-2002 01:39									#62
	Increase the size of your Attachments

One thing that may actually help them with wonders in that spot is you waiting too long. If they were working on a wonder and then got new ones available and you then slam the wonder in via a leader they now can switch and not lose those shields.
Anyway at Monarch and above you want to think about using prebuilds to get a running start on some wonders. The timing of the pre build depends on your production in that city and how the AI is doing. This is were having a very large metro set to optimize shields is helpful.

	25-10-2002 02:10									#63
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 One thing that may actually help them with wonders in that spot is you waiting too long. If they were working on a wonder and then got new ones available and you then slam the wonder in via a leader they now can switch and not lose those shields.

That was kinda the point of waiting to use the leader on the UN.

I could not possibly outbuild Ghandi on that one, but I was close to being able to finish SETI.

He'd already started both UN and Manhattan and started SETI as soon as I traded Comp. for Fission.

By waiting 10 turns, I denied him BOTH SETI and UN.
If I'd used the leader on SETI, I wouldn't have gained anything, as I was going to get that one anyway and there were no other wonders to be had.

I had used espionage to do the math and find that I couldn't possibly beat him to UN without the leader and that he could not possibly beat me to SETI as long as I completed both on the same turn.

I'll try to post a save so you can see what I mean, assuming there's a way to view past moves, or I can find one from before the UN/SETI theft.


If I'd had anything besides Army to use him on, I would have, but I can build Armies without leaders, so that seemed wasteful.


Maybe I really am missing what you're getting at...

	25-10-2002 02:37									#64
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Doubled again. Something up with the servers?

	25-10-2002 04:49									#65
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No you are fine. The rule of thumb is not meant to be lock step, you may need to deviate from it under a particular situation. The point I was making is that if you are sitting on a leader you will not be getting another. That may be a correct price to pay under some conditions.

	25-10-2002 08:33									#66
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sorry to disagree: but

I did both:
I made sure my smaller(less developed cities improved),
and,
kick everybodies b*t

remember, this is an AI your facing!!!!!!!
his behaviour is predictive (yes, Soren did a great job, but after a while.............)

You just need to now when it is the right time to strike and when to hold back IMO

	26-10-2002 00:17									#67
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I may just wait for Synthetic Fibers (and Modern Armor?) and kill 'em all.

I like the Modern Era ok, the new unit icons and animations are neat, but it does get tedious. I've taken to Fortifying all of a stack but one of my various "armies" so I can still check on them every turn, but I don't have to "Hold" each one.

I much prefer the late Ancient and Early Industrial - Middle Ages is cool, but not as fun as those to, IMO.

Then again, I've never been one for "end game" parts of games. It's the play, not the win, that I like.

	26-10-2002 01:00									#68
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ducki,

i would like to see that saved game if you get a chance, but don't write yourself off too soon. just by reading your situation, there seems to still be ways to win the game. you gave ghandi computers which means he has mech inf - tough to invade his territory now unless you have mobile armor.

i have two possible suggestions how to win. if you want a space race victory, i would consider making india angry with you (failed espionage) and get him to go to war with you if possible. Then sign an MPP with China. Let Ghandi attack you causing China to declare war on him. Also make sure China has mech inf (computers) so that he can repel the attach from Ghandi. Keep your japanese occupied cities fortified enough to keep Ghandi back and just ignore the war. Fast research to space flight for apollo and start building your space ship. Ghandi and China will be fighting and should delay their spaceship a bit, but not by much.

warmonger style would be head directly to synth fibers after ecology. upgrade tanks, build an airport in all your cities and airlift your modern armor to the japanese cities. take it to india (make sure to destroy their capital). the airports will make the war as if you share the continent with India. Again, drag China into the war as well.

Never underestimate the power of a weaker civ when given the technology to compete.

Case in point, I was a large empire and very productive in my cities. One of my neighbors, Persia decided he wanted the Zulu's land. Persia had been right there with me in the tech race (I never pulled away from him till this war) and I could see that taking over the (much) weaker Zulu would make him more powerful than I wanted him to be. The Persians would have offered me 25 gpt just to help get rid of the Zulus. I thought about it. Taking the wine rich capital and other cities of the Zulus would aid my strength, but I didn't want the Persians to grow any stronger. I declined the Persian offer, and instead gave the Zulus all the techs the Persians had including computers and even gave them oil so they wouldn't be overrun. The Zulus held their own. Then they invited Russia (the 3rd strongest nation behind me and the Persians) into the war. I was in a nice position being the land holder between the Russians and Persians with a isthmus in the middle that I could block to keep the forces in their own territory if needed (I had ROPs with all other civs). The Russians dragged in the Greeks (very week civ whom I also fed techs and oil to) and some other non-important civs from the other continent. The Persians dragged in the Babylonians whose one island city was quickly gobbled up by the Zulus. With my blocking ability, I was able to stay out of the war (though many, many civs would ask me to join in an alliance) as well as feed it to make it more even and prolong the attacks. Eventually the Zulus took all the Persian cities were I won with the Diplomatic victory. I could have won with the space ship (would have been a close race with the Russians), but I prefered a faster ending and when the diplo opportunity arose, I figured correctly that I was a sinch to win.

there are probably many other atrategies that you could win with as well. i've become much more of a war monger myself. if you can't outbuild your opponent, take over what he's got.

	26-10-2002 02:21									#69
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I _think_ this is my latest sav.
I'll have to have a ROP with China to use my Japan beachhead on India...I think it may be easier to use transports to get a foothold nearer to Delhi, though 0-cost movement with China's railroads would also work.


Anyway, feel free to have a look. I think I'm just a few turns away from Synth Fiber and MA.
I've got quite a lot of Cavalry(outdated cannon fodder), Artillery, Tanks, Mech Inf and a few Battleships and Ironclads - I love bombard!



BTW - did you know you can finish the Ironworks even if your Coal depletes halfway through the build? I found that out this game.

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	26-10-2002 04:11									#70
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Yes, that is why I start it immediately, as I has seen Iron or Coal go away before I got around to starting the thing.

	26-10-2002 05:42									#71
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Wonder why you researched Fibers before Rocketry? Did you forget you need Aluminum? Doing rocketry first allows you a chance to see if you even have the resource and if not where to get it.

	26-10-2002 05:57									#72
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Thanks for the sav. Very interesting game you have going there. If you want to land an invasion force near Dheli, make sure you have enough forces. Personally, I would use that as a last ditch effort to destroy a spaceship.

One thing I've got to mention to you is don't build solar plants! You have the hoover dam. Solar plants only replace your free hydrolic plants production, they don't add to it . Use them for prebuilds on space ship components. Now if you could build nuclear plants, by all means do it! They do increase production.

I see India has rocketry, you have synth fibers. you need both for MAs. Option 1, wait for China and trade with them. Option 2, research it yourself for 4-5 turns.

You might consider disbanding the cavalry in cities to increase their production. This also increases your gpt and allows for more MAs.

Too bad you can't place spies in India or China. But I think with a strong MA force, you could hurt India, esp if you drag China into the war with you. I'll probably try it out when I have time. Hope you do well.

badams52

	26-10-2002 06:52									#73
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I see you do not have spies, so I have no clue what you are up against. I would not bother with Japand, no need. Unless there is a reason to go for India over China I would go for them first. If the space ship is underway that would be a reason. I do not see any RoP? If you wanted to get MPP/RoP with China and go for India that would be better as India would have to land troops or run the gaunlet of China.
I would put in a bit more to hurry rocketry and then upgrade. I would stop all solar plants as they are not needed, you have free hydro. I would switch to hospitals to get hose cities growing and get in those improvements. Some do not have even libs. Look at the units to see if it makes sense to unload a few to raise money for war. I seen mass trans going up on cities with no pollution and they did not have factory or hospitals??? There is no point in get industry if you are not going to build factories, you need them. Yes the pollution is a pain until you get ecology, but not as big of a pain as all of the missid production. wonders go up much quicker in a size 20 with factory, than a size 12 with none. I would even mine over some irrigated tile in my wonder city and deal with the food problem. So wihout a spy to asses the other civs troops I do not who if any are the best target.

	26-10-2002 07:07									#74
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Ah, I did not know I needed Rocketry for MA, but it's no biggie to buy it.

I didn't realize that Solar had no Benefit for me currently.

The only reason I'd say India is my prime target is, they are the ones that are keeping pace with research and selling to China, so they are the "real" threat to "victory".

I thought I had spies, but maybe I just hadn't got to India and China by the time I tried to insert in Japan and failed (twice) causing war. As long as I was already at war, I figured it was a good excuse to get a foothold on the continent. Placement isn't great, but at least it's not just a single city.

Thanks for the feedback again!

	26-10-2002 08:29									#75
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Ah yes, now that vmxa1 mentions it, most of your cities are lacking in production and size. Usually when I hit the modern age, unless I've just seized a city, my cities have the full gambit of improvements through airports. And he's right about the factories and pollution. The debate for me is usually do I build the factory or the hospital first.

One thing you might consider later is the placement of your military acadamy. I usually wait until I know which city of mine with be the smokehouse of production (often it's the city with iron works) and build it there. That will help you produce armies much, much faster.

On forests, you might as well clear all forests on plains and grasslands once you have railroads. If you need the production, you can always mine the plains and grasslands and they will have more production than a railroaded forest.

If you do decide to hit India first, I'd sign ROPs with both China and Japan and hit Kolhapur first. I always like to attack a city that I can take in the first turn of declaring war. And taking it will also give you the incense you just lost from trade with India.

One more piece of advice I have for you, build more artillery if you like to use it. You do not have enough to make it worth your while yet. My minimum for attacking a city in the Modern era is 30. Cruise missiles are good (if you have the disposable income) to knock down hit points of the opponent without destroying city improvements!

	26-10-2002 09:04									#76
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That advice on arties is correct you could use more or suffer loses of MA. It is really a matter of taste/style at this point. Sometimes I just jam in the MA and take losses, others sent bombers and arty. Is the game modded? I ask as I made an MPP with India and sent all MA's over to Edo to attack China. I made some jets as the spy revealed they had 8-10 bombers. If you have fast moving MA's you can over run the bombers. I refused to renew the coal deal to hurt China and redid the lux with India (you gave 2 for 1) and they paid and gave a lux as they needed it worse. I let the peace with China lapse and went to give them a talking to. The game hung right after India declared war on China? It was not responding, so I figured this could be a mod. I think it could have been fun as China was between India and you. I also figured that even if it went really bad the most that could happen is the lost a those few cities and it would cost China big time. I would just flat raze any city that was captured. I put a number of cities with airports on making MA. They now have hospitals and factories. One more point is without 5 hospitals, no Battle Field. True this late it not a big deal. India looked a little weaker military wise. They won't be keeping up in research any longer after the cities get moving. BTW it hung three times in a row the same way.

	26-10-2002 10:07									#77
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Ah yes, razing is good. Depending on the situation, I sometimes like to do a delayed raze. I take and keep the city so that my reinforcements are less affected by the culture borders of my enemy allowing me to move faster to destroy cities. With a large enough army of MA (sometimes arties) I can take 4-5 cities in one turn. Then I abandon the cities that are no longer needed for the movement bonus. Sure I miss out on the workers, but at this point the workers wont be very useful and a blitz attack like above moves quick so your war can be shorter.

	26-10-2002 20:04									#78
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Are you guys still playing this one???
(damned, I achieved domination victory early 1830 )

	26-10-2002 21:00									#79
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With the new sav at 1898, there's a new challenge!

And more strategy to be discussed

	26-10-2002 23:10									#80
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No were are not playing it, Ducki is. I do not know how much time he has to play. Me I have all day and would finsh in one setting, if I stuck to it and not played another game. He may have even restarted to try another tactic, anyway it is not important, if he is having fun. BTW you did a great job.
Ducki, before it hung, I had also sent all the calv units around Edo to the saltpetter to cut the roads and maybe draw fire. If they were not killed Iwould have sent them out to destroy lux/resources and bonus tiles.

	27-10-2002 00:36									#81
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I think I already have Battlefield Med.

I am still playing, but I'm interspersing my playtime with new game starts - it's just so tedious now.

Some of the cities are lacking improvements based on someone's advice of Barracks+Temple+Wealth for very corrupt cities, some are just either moving slow or on a slower Reinforcement Building schedule. After so long, I just can't manage the cities, so some I've frozen at lower populations on purpose, which I'm sure is helping India.

Also, this is my first time to play this far into the tech tree, so I'm bumbling about quite a bit with research choices and catching up on improvements, etc.

I do like the artillery because I can rebuild a temple really quick or rush it and I don't really care about the conquered cities being overly productive, just that they take up space and give me highspeed travel.
I wish there was a way to tell an entire stack to bombard until all defenders are at 1 hp - to avoid both tedium of "B" + Click 20 times AND to not unduly destroy improvements.
Once I have MA I think I'll just see about destroying India - the end game is awfully time consuming and unless India get lucky and launch the SS, I don't think it's possible for them to win.

I think I have sufficient power and production and money to prevent the SS, making victory just a matter of picking the right spots to strike, like luxuries, resources, etc.


Good call on the use for Cav - I was just going to use them as cannon fodder, worker capturers, city garrisons if needed, and of course, Pillagers. I have a couple of Elites that I'd try to generate leaders with, but probably not on Infantry fortified in a town, even when Bombarded to 1 hp. That just seems wasteful.

	27-10-2002 01:28									#82
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You can not have the BM small wonder, without 5 hospitals built. You are thinking of MA or Epic. Like I said, it is all good as long as you are having fun. Many tactics will work, some better than others, it depends on your goals. I do not have a problem with just temples in +1 cities and a barracks in the front lines. I would say that the core cities, must be managed to get more out of them. You may not need the max, but as you move up you will, may as well get in the habit. You can be a bit cavalier with the rest of the empire, once you get in the lead. If you have all improvements in place when available in the core cities, you would be in the tech lead now and not worried about space ships or nukes. Good hunting.

	27-10-2002 03:43									#83
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you should check out the one I'm playing now

settings: deity(first time)
pangea (got stuck on an island though)
victory: all but diplo (IIRC )

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	27-10-2002 05:28									#84
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ducki, sounds like too much micro management for your tastes. you might consider letting the computer manage the population or production in those cities you have no energy for.

I agree with you and you should be powerful enough to stop India and China from building the SS. What victory condition are you hoping for?

never been in modern age before? sounds like you've never gotten a spaceship victory. if you wanted, you probably could beat India and China to building the spaceship. Just prebuild the components in your cities to build them as soon as you aquire the tech. You have a good enough tech lead so that you'll wind up getting the techs ahead of your opponents with enough time.

It's not the temple we hope isn't destroyed in artillery fire, all culture buildings will be destroyed when you take the enemy city. It's the other improvements: harbors, airports, marketplaces, banks, factories, etc. that are nice to have intact. But vxma is right. it's just a matter of style. Some people like to build their capital on one continent and the FP on the other. Me, I prefer to keep my core cities on the homeland and have a few satellite cities on the other continent for luxuries and airports.

when you do attack India, expect a long, slow war. MAs vs. Mech Inf is slow. You should win, but I doubt it will be a quick war. And it will be time consuming - I mean you may end up starting to take 10-15 minutes a turn with all the units the both of you will be throwing at each other.

good luck

	27-10-2002 07:39									#85
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alva848, I saw you had posted it on another thread. I will check it out when I finish the non civ game I am playing. I am taking a break from civ for a few days so when PTW comes out I will not be fried. Need a week away from it or so, else I will be sick of civ before I even try PTW.

	27-10-2002 10:41									#86
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I looked at it and it seems you did not get a lot of breaks on the lux or the resources. Big whole now. When you saw that you had no saltpetter, did you decide to not go back for Knight becasue of the lack of iron or were you planning to not use them regardless?
I ask as you may have been able to trade for iron for a one time deal. It would be hard, though as you have little to offer. At least war is raging else where. It would be a very unpleasant experience to see China show with Riders about now.
I checked on China and they want almost as much for Iron as for saltpetter. It will be a bugger to come up with the money to upgrade.
Lots of luck to you. I did not even see much lux in the scan of the map.

	27-10-2002 19:03									#87
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I did have iron, but only for a couple of turns
I sold it to the Germans for a couple of tech
( couldn't do much with it at the time anyway, but then it dissapeared have way through the deal (wich off-course made them p*ssed)

That global war has only started very recently. Before it I was planning on invading Persia, but now???

My options:
1. Persia: doable, but: it will trigger a war with Germany
2. Iroquois: to far for replacements, and it will trigger a war with china
3. Germany: best option IMO, close and they are weakened, but this will trigger a war with Persia and there are no big rewards (no lux or strategic resources), unless I'm able to get to Berlin
And all of this without Iron or slatpeter

	27-10-2002 21:58									#88
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Yup, it was homely. It will not be fun to take horsemen and attack cities with muskets or maybe even soon rifles. If China is involved they probably have Riders, a very nasty unit at that stage. It should just chew up horses and spearmen. Ugly indeed. If you make the trade for saltpetter, you can start up some calv and hope to upgrade a few horsemen. I think it is 100 gold to go from horsemen to calv and 80 to knights. That is why I like chivalry, only 20 to go from knight to calv.

	28-10-2002 04:01									#89
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Well, a couple of turns later , and I'm still alive things are even looking up .
I'm about to invade Germany who's at war with everyone right now except the Iroquois who seem to have dissapeared .

I'm still upgrading, but plan take a city in a turn or two. 20+ cavalry should to the trick.
The germans are probably pretty bad beaten up anyway, or so I hope.

Attachment: hammurabi of the babylonians, 1030 ad.sav
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	28-10-2002 05:35									#90
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Sorry to be thread jacking here Ducki.
Alva, yes you got a chance to get in a few licks on Germany. Without espionage it is hard to say how China is set up. The thing that can happen in spots like this is the big dog decides to not let you in the sand box and things get ugly very fast. China likely has a lots of Riders and calv to drop on someone, if it chooses to. What did they get for the saltpetter? high 50's per turn or low 60's?