28-10-2002 16:50									#91
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hmm, were are treadjacking arn't we .

For The first salpeter they got low 50's IIRC.

I was able to get a few german cities, but was really unlucky.
Went full blooded for Berlin (Sun Tsu&Smith), last defender was down to 2 HP, helas no more cavalry--> India stole it the next turn.(Couldn't wait for reinforcements since both India and China at it's gaits)

Got steampower, and yes, you've guessed it, no coal in my territory

The germans were allmost beaten, so there was a race for it's last cities, and again had 1 attacker too few (this city did have coal)

The last german was really fun: I still have not had my golden age, so I tried to force it.
I placed a cavalry before it's city with 2 bowman (UU) a tile behind them. It worker like a peach .
A longbowmen came out of the city and attackt my cavalry (it's kind strange rooting for the enemy, but that's what I was doing :lol, yes the longbowman won!!! with 2hp left. This was it, my golden age was to arrive.
Except , when the germans had finished, right of the blue, a Chinese cavalry saw him, and thought, hmm, what's he doing there. Better get rid of him!!!!!aaaaaaargh.
Should I mention that when it was my turn, I came, yes, 1 unit short of taking the last german city

Current state: I still can't get any paying GPT deals going, so I 'm falling behind (alot )
I do have 1rubber (no kidding) on the very outskirts of my realm, so I better protect it well
Signd an mpp with India (need some protection)
China has gone to war with Persia.
I'm waiting to see what happens.

oh yes, Iron had 'jumped' into german hands, and I was not to far out, hmm, just close enough infact , So I got Iron too

if want to see this save too, ask and thy shallt receive

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	28-10-2002 22:31									#92
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I still say that China looks very scary. If they elect to become beligerent, it could get rough. It would depend on you MPP partner, often the AI just sits on its hands and does not help much. That is why I like to have my mpp partners land between me and the atacker. Now they have to fight as the troops are going through their lands. You pick up any luxs?

	29-10-2002 04:33									#93
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I don't mind the threadjack at all.
It's good to see other people's situations, especially now that we're 5 pages into my screenshot-heavy, self-centered thread.

If there's stuff to be learned, keep it coming, even if it's not "my" game.

	29-10-2002 05:20									#94
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ducki you getting anywhere. Did you run into the hangs I saw? I was wanting to see the outcome as it looked promising. Did almost no damage on their turn and India had declared, so chinas turn was over. Likely could have taken that close city and cut off much chance of china getting at those cities you had on the land mass. So al fights would have taken place in their cities.

	29-10-2002 06:26									#95
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I haven't gotten back to it, but I think I'll go beat up on India and see how things turn out.

Or I might go try a game as a non-industrious civ - though I almost always quit those very early. Warrior-Warrior-Settler just doesn't work as a "rule" for me on those.

As Industrious, I can pop out 3 or 4 cities before deciding I _have_ to have a new worker. With non-Industrious, I feel like I'm terribly behind by the time I get Iron+Horses hooked up.

/sigh

I'll keep ya posted, though.

	29-10-2002 06:29									#96
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Oh, and badams52 asked "What victory condition are you hoping for?"

Well, I really didn't plan on victory.
It's my first Regent game and all I really wanted to do what "finish the game" for a change.

I probably should have had a single goal, but this was more of an exploratory/experimental game at a new difficulty.

I fully expected the AI to trounce me but it's been rather close - so close that the tedium is trouncing me for the AI.

	29-10-2002 17:44									#97
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 I still say that China looks very scary. If they elect to become beligerent, it could get rough. It would depend on you MPP partner, often the AI just sits on its hands and does not help much. That is why I like to have my mpp partners land between me and the atacker. Now they have to fight as the troops are going through their lands. You pick up any luxs?

China is scary , and I agree with you on the MPP partner.
That's why I went for India (my left and south of China), that'is the best I can do.
IF china decides it's time to wipe me, they will be in for a tough time though.
They will have problems with their logistics, the part between china and me has not been full RR, this could just give ma an edge.
I'm producing infantry at the moment, I stopped trading for saltpeter (I'm not planning any offence anyway, too difficult cavalry versus infantry on deity ) and I'm waiting for tanks (i've I get oil )
then I'm gonna create some kind of WW, all against china. I was thinking of joining china against persia, but that will make china even stronger with only 2 opponents left.
So i'm gonna let them do the hard work and try to steel some cities

And no, no more lux (and my trade is going down to off)cousre (less partners :evilgrin

	29-10-2002 21:53									#98
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K. So I got ready, signed an MPP with China, Upgraded all my tanks to MA and went to war with India.

Oh the humanity.

India had a lot of bombers. And used them. Anywhere I didn't have a fighter got bombed.

And they must have subs too, because my battleships keep losing HPs mysteriously.

I took two towns on a peninsula on their own, plus that little two-tile island near Thebes, but I had to sue for peace ASAP, as WW got so bad, even my two "best" cities started rioting!

The war lasted about 20 turns, I guess.

Or maybe it just felt like it.

Got a leader out of the deal so I can rush a SS part once I get him home and after I get the Apollo Program built. Actually, I'll probably have it built before he can make it home.


How do I move a Cruise Missile(?) overseas?

Very tedious war, but the AI definitely didn't behave "stupidly". Semi-predictable, but not stupid.

	29-10-2002 22:17									#99
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One thing I question is the AI always seems to know where the fighters are and usually avoids them. Use the lux slider or specialist to keep WW down. I have never done it, but I understand that cruise missiles can be loaded on transports, I don't use them.

	30-10-2002 02:59									#100
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Oh, if I was willing to spend the money, I could probably find out where he has fighters and bomb elsewhere as well. As it is, I have enough workers to fix whatever he messes up in a single turn anyway, plus, the two towns I captured on the mainland had 4 or 5 bombers total and a transport or two.

The island had a transport and an ironclad, IIRC, so I did hurt him a bit.

It's just awfully tedious having to move and keep together that many units with varying movement costs while keeping up the supply/reinforcement chain.


I feel pretty assured of victory, especially if I decide to use my nukes, so I started a new game as France ("We are from France" - Coneheads) and the map generator really had some fun.

It's a great new map, very interesting, and challenging since there are many inlets and peninsulas(peninsulae? peninsuli?) so it's tough to get any sort of standard/uniform city spacing arrangement. And I'm sandwiched on an isthmus between Germany(NW), Russia(NE) and England(SE). Much more challenging than this Egypt game, especially with Warmonger Kathy next door and Backstabber Bismarck behind with room to grow.


At any rate, thanks for all the help and anyone that wants to try an interesting/challenging Regent map as France, lemme know and I'll post it. (Continuing comments on newbie/lowbie strategy welcome.)

	01-11-2002 11:44									#101
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ok, things are starting to look up .
At the moments it's one big WW without anyone making any real progress.
But I have managed to improve my situation somewhat.
Got an extra lux, 2 oil, and 1 extra coil and iron.
The chinese have built hover and are still a long way away tech wise(about 7 or 8), but they been put on the defensive. I gonna participate the moment I get tanks (I did kill an army (4tanks) and a GL).
The Indians are starting to crumble though (not a good thing, yet)

oh yea, I finaly managed to get my golden age started

Great game btw, best one so far

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	01-11-2002 12:26									#102
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I looked at it using PTW and some of the tech reflected the new features in PTW, butr not the units. strange. At least you have everyone going after China for the time being.

	02-11-2002 03:43									#103
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quote: Originally posted by ducki K. So I got ready, signed an MPP with China, Upgraded all my tanks to MA and went to war with India. Oh the humanity. India had a lot of bombers. And used them. Anywhere I didn't have a fighter got bombed. And they must have subs too, because my battleships keep losing HPs mysteriously. I took two towns on a peninsula on their own, plus that little two-tile island near Thebes, but I had to sue for peace ASAP, as WW got so bad, even my two "best" cities started rioting! Got a leader out of the deal so I can rush a SS part once I get him home and after I get the Apollo Program built. Actually, I'll probably have it built before he can make it home. How do I move a Cruise Missile(?) overseas? Very tedious war, but the AI definitely didn't behave "stupidly". Semi-predictable, but not stupid.

As vmxa1 was saying, and correctly I might add, the luxury slider becomes the essential ingredient to make your (democratic) cities happy. Another good tip is to make your opponent declare war on you. Your people will be more sympathetic to your war and take longer to become unhappy. Since you're Egypt (Religious Civ), why not switch to Monarchy during the war to kill WW when it gets too tough to manage?

To stop the bombers, I usually keep 2 jet fighters/city on air superiority. That'll keep India from bombing for long.

It's good for your navy to have subs out there with your battleships and destroyers. AEGIS cruisers are another good deterent. That way you can always see the enemy subs and not accidently run over them or have them attack you while you're not expecting it.

ah, so you like to have the game in hand, then start a new one. I can respect that. Many a time I get bored just waiting for the win myself.

	02-11-2002 05:05									#104
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Ok, so what are some ways to "force" the AI to declare war on you without you being technically the instigator?

For example, troops in his land - if he demands I move and I don't, isn't my action an implicit declaration of war, so I'm the one "responsible" for it, as far as War Weariness and Reputation and broken Trade Deals?

	02-11-2002 06:17									#105
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Not implicit... in choosing not to move, you must declare war, so it's explicit.

Check the WW thread, which lays out all the 'honorable' ways to get into a war.

	02-11-2002 07:16									#106
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Which WW thread are you talking about. I didn't see a satisfactory one in the "must read" sections.

Some ways I know to cause the AI to declare war on me:

(1) try (and fail) to plant a spy or have failed spy missions. Sometimes when you fail, the offended civ attacks you.
(2) launch a couple of nukes at a civ you don't want the war with. The other civs will declare war on you, then make peace with the one you nuked (may take a few turns). Now you have the war you want that you didn't declare

It also helps if other civs are furious with you. In your Regent game, China and India like you too much. To make them furious (don't know if it lasts long) outrageously demand tribute (like a city) over and over in the same turn till their disposition becomes furious. When the AI is furious, they're more likely to declare war.

Of course it isn't always perfect. I often just wait till someone decides to declare war on me, then reject their peace treaties and take all their cities. For some reason, the AI always seems to be dumb enough to declare war on me.

In your Regent game, I would declare war and change to Monarchy.

	02-11-2002 07:24									#107
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Oh, and sometimes when you sign a deal with a very large gpt deal, the civ you're dealing with doesn't want to pay it anymore and he'll declare war. I had a 200+ gpt deal with Persia once and instead of paying it all off, they declared war after about 3 turns. I wiped them out for their backstabbing ways!

	02-11-2002 07:37									#108
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I couldn't find a WW thread either.
Checked Strategy and General and did a forum Search.
There were a couple of promising threads, but I couldn't find anything like what you described, unless it was in Spanish.


And badams52 - I thought that a failed spy planting was an "international incident" which left me with the "responsibility" for the war... no?

Anyway, I'm off to try a few more searches. Hmmm...maybe "honorable" will work.

	02-11-2002 11:52									#109
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you might find it here( if not, there's lots off other good stuff in here)
http://apolyton.net/dir/

	03-11-2002 02:04									#110
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If you see some of their troop in your territory, before asking them to leave, demand ridiculous things to the leader (i.e. all their gold, cities, techs and maps...) Rinse and repeat until he is furious. Then, ask them to remove their troops. They have a good chance to declare war on you...

--Kon--

	03-11-2002 03:37									#111
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Ooooh! Good one Kon!


And just to keep the thread going, I started a Monarch game (again, as Egypt, hey! They're the easiest to "stay in the game" with) and am doing fairly well, but DAMN the AI moves fast!

Much harder.

More suggestions on starting a war "honorably"?

	03-11-2002 06:57									#112
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ducki, try China they have a really good UU.

	03-11-2002 20:51									#113
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I wish I could get away from Industrious, but I just can't seem to.

My wife just got PTW as a birthday gift, so maybe I'll try one of those Industrious civs.

Any newbies reading this thread, do NOT limit yourself to Industrious or you'll miss half the game.

Maybe the new civs will be fun enough to get me away from industrious...

	03-11-2002 23:50									#114
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I've tried (and won) with all the civs pre PTW, but like you, I can never play and enjoy being a non-industrious civ. The fast workers alone make it worth while for me. It's hard to go back to those slow workers.

	04-11-2002 01:00									#115
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I am seeing the effects of Exp/Rel traits in the reduce productivity. Those traits go down in value the longer the game goes on. I have reaffirmed my dislike of exp trait. The goody huts are not going to carry the game and once that phase is done, you pay for the lack ind or mil. I have yet to get a leader and have very few elites. I have a galley that has killed 6 ships and is still a regular. This is will the Arabs and I will not be using them again.

	04-11-2002 16:46									#116
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You do have to relearn/adjust with a 'new' trait. And play accordingly.

You now, a good execise is to choose a civ and do away with it's traits (through the editor), play the game.
After thet you will look upon each trait as a bonus.

About exp: I don't like it very much either, but it [u]can[/b] be very powerfull. An extra settler on the second turn has more value then being mil. IMO

	04-11-2002 22:37									#117
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Yes get a settler out of the gate is very strong. I got one on an Emp game and it was a cake walk. On my current game a large map, I failed to get settler or city, so it was not that useful. I have cleared most of my land mass and have calv and still no leader and few elites, that could have helped (don't need them, but..).

	06-11-2002 01:28									#118
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Another way to incite war: build a city very close to the AI you want to attack. I've heard they hate that. The Iriquois had a city at the edge of their empire that hadn't expanded yet. I build one right on the border taking some of his area next to the city! Then I made exhorbant demands of 15gpt to make him furious. After the failed spy planting, he declares war.

ducki - the manual does say "international incident" which would mean reputation hit, but in terms of war weariness, they declared war. I may be wrong, but my people don't seem to get too upset when someone declares war after an international incident.

	08-11-2002 04:22									#119
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Ah, ok, thanks. I still hate the reputation hit, but it's not near as bad as WW.

Still not able to find any thread on the honorable ways to start a war.

I have done a lot of reading off of Theseus' Must Read threads(or the Directory, same thing) - more of the military stuff this time.

I just can't get the hang of early military expansion and early oscillating wars. Maybe I just don't build enough units and build too many temples and courthouses and such.

And I still have trouble deciding what to do with my FP. I'm pretty good at getting the most out of the cities I have, it's the bit about expanding at my neighbor's expense that I'm having trouble with. Either my timing is off or I don't have enough units or I'm too busy building the Library/Gardens/Sistine or something.

Do you guys build Temples ASAP or just whenever you don't have anything else to do? I usually building them ASAP - starting city is often Warrior-Warrior-Settler-Barracks(orTemple)-Settler and the 2nd and later cities are almost always Temple-MilitaryUnit-Settler-Barracks-Worker-Unit-Unit-Worker-Unit-Improvement

My culture is usually pretty damn high - I always flip at least one city by the mid-MiddleAges and at least one more by mid-Industrial - at least that many per game, but my military campaigns - if you could call them that - always leave something to be desired. Rarely generate leaders, rarely take more than 3 cities per war, sometimes only 1. Occasionally, I lose more units than the war was worth - about the only time I'll feed the Attrition Monster is if I'm going for a Luxury - and sometimes have to abort the war at the first possible opportunity.

Guess I need to go read more about warmongering.

	08-11-2002 06:51									#120
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I would say tha it is likely that you do not make enough troops in favor of structures. Certainly courthouse would not be before troops for a warmonger play. You have to commit to one or the other.
FP, to me it is either1- make it near palace, withthe intent to move palace later or 2- build as far in the direction that I am growing as practical as soon as practical.