20-10-2002 01:38									#1
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I am planning to create a scenario about the Roman Empire(the whole 1000+years of it!!).
It will start at 150AD after the paccification of Britain and end hopefully at 1453AD. Perhaps it begins after the battle of Adrianople and ends with Manzikert. Needless to say this scenario will be huge. I wanted to create this one since the very begining.
I will start creating the scenario around Christmas when i will have ample time, without my studies. I am currently doing research on books about the Roman Empire. My graphic drawing techniques have definetely improved and i plan to create all the graphics myself.
My planning thus far:
CIVS 1)Romans 2)Germanics(Goths, Vandals, Alans, Franks) 3)Persians 4) Arabs.
2-4 years per turn. The whole tech tree will be uprooted and redesigned.
I need your suggestions on the civs(Too many to include all).

I am thinking of having the Franks as an independant civ(to allow for a "European" civ that will emerge after the retreat of Rome).
I don't know what to do with the Turks and the Huns. Should i have them all as one civ(Turkic) or two?
And the Mongols? The Slavs?

The German nations will be represented by units in the Germanic civ i.e. Gothic Cavalry in Adrianople, Saxons etc...
Any aid will be welcome.

	23-10-2002 01:28									#2
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> I need your suggestions on the civs

CIVS: Romans, Persians, Germanics, Slavs, Arabs.
Huns and other nations of such type - as Barbarians. Turks must be alone, I suppose...
[and how about Ros (Russians) in your scenario?]

> Any aid will be welcome.

I'll help you with great pleasure, if I can.

	23-10-2002 01:37									#3
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IMHO far too complex for Civ engine, maybe you should consider other games for that kind of scen.
(I can hear flamers behind my door)

	23-10-2002 03:46									#4
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IMHO far too complex for Civ engine, maybe you should consider other games for that kind of scen.

Like what? It would be an enormous undertaking in EU2 because of the different expectations in detail and events.

If you've designed a few civ2 scenarios, it should be possible in ToT with CSPL.

Are you planning to make the Roman Empire playable?

I suggest:
1) Romans
2) Persians
3) Arabs
4) Turks
5) Franks
6) Germans
7) Vikings
8) Barbs for Huns, Avars, Mongols, and Slavs

	23-10-2002 14:54									#5
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enormous...i dont know, but careless to differences it could represent it more properly. Diplomacy and proper alliances-vassalizations. Economy is more different, but anyway leading b4 civ2...
With CSPL, yes, but awfully little action can be seen at that front

	23-10-2002 18:11									#6
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Again I emphasise; Alans weren't Germanic though they were considered to be them.

My propositions;

1)Romans
2)Persians
3)Slavs (or Bulgarians)
4)All barbarian civs of the west
5)Turks
6)Arabs
7)?

but my most important point is that to propose civs for your scn, we must know the map You're going to use.

	24-10-2002 07:05									#7
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An interesting concept. It could be pulled off, but you will have to give playablilty the nod over historical factors. ( As it should be in all scens. )

	25-10-2002 19:10									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Jacobite1688 An interesting concept. It could be pulled off, but you will have to give playablilty the nod over historical factors. ( As it should be in all scens. )

I agree with the first sentence, but not with the other one. I see your point, but then the difference between historical and fictional scns would be only theoretical.

	25-10-2002 21:08									#9
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I am currently reading Osprey's titles about the Roman soldier of the various time periods. Tommorow (hopefully) i shall purchase Gibbon's " Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire" which i plan to finish in a month(maybe less).

I plan to make the Roman Empire as the only playable civ. Since a good player will naturally use the Legions to conquer the rest of the world, i plan to have events simulate the colapse of the West. Plus no garrisons in most cities.

The ideal civs selection is 1)Romans 2)Arabs 3)Persians 4)Germanics 5)Franks 6)Turkics 7)Slavs 8)Mongols.

However only seven are allowed.

Last edited by Palaiologos on 25-10-2002 at 21:24

	25-10-2002 21:14									#10
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About the map: I have never used another's map in one of my scenario's so i will propably design this one too myself. However if one can provide an ACCURATE map of the region i will have no problem using it.

Region: Western end will be Spain, Northern end England and Scandinavia(i don't know how much of Russia i will include) Southern end will be northern Egypt and Northern Africa. The Eastern end is another issue however. Will the whole Sassanid Empire be included and what about the Caucasus( Armenia etc..)?

Hopefully i will have the answers to these questions by the end of next week.

	25-10-2002 21:34									#11
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About the Civs:

1)Romans. It will include both eastern and western Roman Empire. They may were administrationally divided but were politicaly more or less united.

2)Arabs. Jihad!!!Their rise to power in the 6th to 7th century AD grants them a unique place in the Roman Empire scenario.

3)Persians. The resurgent Persian Empire was the main opponent of the Eastern Empire for centuries.

4)Germanics. Alans, Goths, Vandals, Saxons all were detrimental in the fall of the Roman Empire.

5)Franks. The only reasons they will be included( if they are finally are) is to allow for a "European" civ to fill the gap of Rome in the West. Plus Germanics can't launch Crusades, while a generic Frankish civ can.

6)Turkics. Huns and Turks. They will be included as one since in the eyes of the civilized peoples they were the same tribes named differently. They both caused havoc.

7)Slavs. Rus, Bulgars , Serbs all wanted a piece of the Eastern Empire and occasionally invaded.

8)Mongols. The Golden horde despite the destruction it brought in the West was actually a devoted ally of the Eastern Empire.

	25-10-2002 21:37									#12
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Most propably the Franks and Germans will be included as one civ.

	25-10-2002 21:51									#13
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My progress thus far:
1)I plan to replace railroad with "villas". They will not be buildable and will only exist around urban areas in France and Britain.
2)I have found most of the trade routes of Britain cities.
3)Christianity tech will replace Communism. It will shaken the trust of the people in pagan temples(Cathedral)
4) Barracks=Scholae
according to "Roman Britain", a booklet that i purchased in Britain, the Romans called Bassilica their Courthouses. I thought it was the name of a Church style. Enlighten me more please.
5) Trade goods: olive oil, oysters, wool, corn iron, copper, tin, silver, gold, pottery, slaves, horses.
6)I would like to try to have the Legionaries of 150AD-300AD to have Settler ability(They built forts, roads, their retired veterans founded cities etc.). Comment please!.

Last edited by Palaiologos on 25-10-2002 at 22:37

	25-10-2002 22:36									#14
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I know what ToT is (Test of Time) but what about this CSPL?.

	25-10-2002 23:48									#15
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@ 4) I think this link covers it:
http://www.ku.edu/history/index/eur...*/Basilica.html (in short: Roman basilicas served as courts of law and merchant/business meeting places. The Christian basilica is a church based on the model of a Roman basilica, so that was what you were thinking of).

As for your last post, you apparently don't have ToT, so CSPL would be of no interest for you... CSPL stands for Civilization Scenario Programming Library. It's a program which can tamper with ToT's memory, thus it is (in principle) able to do everything you'd be able to hexedit. Since it works on the game memory the changes take effect immediately, so you can think of CSPL as the ultimate event language. But CSPL is still a bit experimental...

edit: corrected link

Last edited by Mercator on 26-10-2002 at 00:03

	25-10-2002 23:58									#16
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Amazing link!

Thanks!

Actually i have ToT for about two days now....

	26-10-2002 01:00									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Palaiologos Amazing link! Thanks!

I hope that refers to the full URL it should have been, not the faulty link I posted.

quote: Actually i have ToT for about two days now....

Aha... Then CSPL would be very interesting. If you didn't know already, you can download it here:
http://coc.apolyton.net/utilities/index.shtml (among undoubtedly more places)...
You'll also need Borland's C++ compiler
This link might work (and it more likely doesn't... in that case follow the instructions in the CSPL documentation):
ftp://ftpd.borland.com/download/bcp...ndLinetools.exe

	26-10-2002 11:51									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Mercator The Christian basilica is a church based on the model of a Roman basilica, so that was what you were thinking of.

Correct in part, but more (maybe too much more) is that a Christian basilica in not simply a church modeled after the Roman buildings, but rather it is a church that (under special circumstances) can grant pilgrims indugences (NOT the pre-Reformation "get out of Hell free" kind). Minor basilicas are numerous and are tied to one of the seven Major Basilicas, six of which are in Rome. The seventh is in Assisi...just FYI.

	27-10-2002 05:26									#19
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Leaders and Civs(final. I think)

i)Romans-Constantine
ii)Persians-Chosroes
iii)Franks-Charlemagne or Clovis
iv)Arabs-Muhamed
v)Slavs-Vladimir of Kiev or Symeon
vi)Germanics(or Germans)-Barbarosa?
vii)Turkics-Osman? Kilidj Aslan?

The Mongols and others (Armenians etc.) will be represented by barbarians.


Any comments?

	27-10-2002 08:41									#21
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iv)Arabs-Muhamed

I might be crazy and care-free, but I'd go with "Mohammed" or "Muhammad" myself.

	27-10-2002 16:49									#22
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Hmm... yes wrong spelling, thank you.

	28-10-2002 19:16									#23
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Muhammad is more correct, but in Polish it is Mahomet for example and I think it's not wrong.

	28-10-2002 19:56									#24
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Who cares!

Just need your opinion on the specific leaders, not on their spelling. I was looking to have generic civ leaders, not of a specific time period.

P.S Heresson did you get the e-mail about th EU?

	28-10-2002 20:46									#25
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Alright, you asked about the map i was going to use. This is a map of the empire of the 3rd Century AD(about the time my scenario will start).

Attachment: fullmap2.jpg
This has been downloaded 210 time(s).

	29-10-2002 14:42									#26
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I did get the mail, thanks.
When it comes to map, Germanic lands did not extend that much to the east - except for the temporary Goth
pass.

When it comes to leaders, I'd like Symeon for Slavs
more than Włodzimierz.

	30-10-2002 02:15									#27
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Well Palaiologos, I have an idea about freeing the Russian Civ slot: When the Viking raids start, event-flood Russia with Barbarian Viking units. Or have a trigger to allow them to appear randomly farther north. Now when its time for the Christianisation of the Kievan Rus (or when a Cyrilus and Methodius Mission tech is acquired) have byzantine settlers+ Varangarians appear say near Kiev, Moscow and Novgorod. Here is the catch: make an event whence for every Viking the Byzantines kill, they get a Varangarian on the spot (Russia & Ukraine), possibly with a price penalty. Use the axe- wieldind Rus and Swedes to defend the Russian lands (agains the Mongol Invasion that approaches) and ferry any surplus units to Costantinople, via the Black Sea. This way you depict a) Russian Slavo-Nordic heritage b) Russian Orthodox culture c) Varangarian guard recruitment d) a Russian specific unit e) Czarist (Czar is Caesar after all) aspirations to become the third Rome after the "Vasilevousa" collapses and a window for the Eastern Roman player to keep playing "historically" after 1453 (there are, of course religious/political implications with this choice) and f) You don't have to set a separate Russian civ. This here is a Varangarian I made by patching up body parts from Bernd Brosings Byzantines. What do you think?

Attachment: tanelorn4.gif
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	31-10-2002 04:59									#28
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I dislike the idea - that would suggest that silly Russian
claims were true.

	31-10-2002 05:46									#29
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Well Heresson, it just fits the game mechanics nicely, I think. I am aware of the political implications (and a bit uneasy too) as I already said. I have overexhausted the Polish Russophobia/ Russian Anti-Polish frenzy issue with a Polish co-student of mine and haven't heard from her since. Just Joking. But I never called her ideas silly, my friend.
Byzantine Greeks looked up to the Russians during the Turkish occupation because of this sense of cultural kinship. Ivan I got married to the last Byzantine Princess, Sophia Palaiologina (niece of Costantine Palaiologos that started this thread) to establish his dynastic claim. The Polish saved western Europe from the Ottomans, no doubt about that.

	31-10-2002 15:28									#30
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quote: Ivan I got married to the last Byzantine Princess, Sophia Palaiologina (niece of Costantine Palaiologos that started this thread)

Primo, the title of Roman emperor was sold by members of
imperial family to several mights in the west; Sofia was a catholic and was sent to Moscow by the pope; soon even this dinastical connection broke, as her descendants were
overthrown. Dotter of Sofia was wife of our king - does it mean we can claim we are descendants of Byzantine Empire too? Especially that up till some time, it were Poles not Russians to be expected to liberate Balkans by its Slavs.