10-11-2002 01:53									#91
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No, no, no civfan. You have misunderstood. More propably I was not clear enough.

The map that has the "strange" info is NOT THE ONE that i have posted.

It is P.Connoly's map in "Greece and Rome at War". It supposedly shows the Roman frontier regions and field armies according to the enigma that calls itself Notitia Dignitatum in 395AD. Your link however provided me with a lot of information. Many thanks.

	10-11-2002 02:00									#92
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And just if anyone asks the first FIVE plates (Eastern frontier, Last stand, Legionaries on campaign, Saxon shore, and Dacia 105Ad) along with the map are from "Imperial Rome at War" by Martin Widrow. They were designed by Angus McBride.

The Roman troops 9th century are from Osprey's title "Romano-Byzantine Armies 4th-9th centuries", they too designed by Angus McBride.

	10-11-2002 06:09									#93
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Some good sites at:
http://www.roman-empire.net/army/army.html
http://ancienthistory.about.com/lib...belisariusb.htm
http://myron.sjsu.edu/romeweb/ROMARMY/art1.htm
http://ragz-international.com/roman_army.htm
http://www.royalty.nu/history/empires/Byzantine
http://www.angelfire.com/games/vinc...z/byz_index.htm
and of course the brilliant http://www.dbaol.com/start.htm

	10-11-2002 06:20									#94
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And http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/sour...dignitatum.html ,in English of course. Plus the images accompanying the manuscript in the homepage.

	12-11-2002 04:23									#95
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quote: Originally posted by Palaiologos What do you know of the Sassanid military? Did they use War elephants in battle?(i personally doubt it). My impression is that their army composed of ultra-heavy cavalry(cataphracts) and horse archers. They also used sophisticated siege technics. What about their infantry? Where they only irregulars and skirmishers or they also fielded heavy infantry?. Any info on dates, numbers, locations etc. would be much appreciated, thanks.

The Sassanids inherited their military system from the Parthians. The aristocracy provided clibanarii cavalry (both rider and horse fully armoured), while minor nobility and nomad mercenaries fought as light horse archers.

Indian Elephants were used (placed at the rear of the army)

Infantry were generally poor quality, lightly armed peasants. These were supplemented by good quality light infantry such as Kurdish kavelinmen, Syrian foot archers and Anatolian slingers.

The elite units of the Sassanid army included 'the Immortals' - 10,000 Clibanarii - and the 7th century Pushtighban bodyguard - 6000 men.

	12-11-2002 04:25									#96
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A selection of units from the Notitia Dignitatum:

Attachment: gb notitia.doc
This has been downloaded 7 time(s).

	12-11-2002 17:07									#97
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Hell!!
"Immortals"!!!?
Are you certain?

Any way "Clibanarii" will not be included in the scenario. Their only diference from the Cataphracts was that the Clibanarii wore plate contrary to the cataphract's mail armor. Which is not really a difference in "civilization terms".
Oh, and they were completely inefective.

There will be only Cataphracts.(Buildable by both Persians and Romans).

	12-11-2002 17:30									#98
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There's a lot of debate about exactly what was meant by the terms clibanarius and cataphract. I think that current thinking regards cataphracts as heavily armoured riders whilst clibanarii were heavily armoured riders and horses - at least if you use the (apparent) late Roman designations. In the late Roman army only units of clibanarii used horse armour, and usually only appeared in the eastern armies, to oppose the Sassanids. Units of cataphracts, or well-armoured cavalry appeared throughout the later empire. If you get a chance, check out 'Late Roman Cavalryman, 236-565AD' by Simon MacDowall.

There's a good description of the Sassanid army in the Osprey book 'Rome's Enemies: Parthians and Sassanid Persions'. This states that the 'Immortals' were an emulation of the ancient Persian unit, but were probably clibanarii. The figure of 10,000 seems a bit high, though. This book suggests that later Sassanid armies included less well armoured cavaly.

	12-11-2002 21:05									#99
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quote: Originally posted by Valuk Actually, the Russians did win. Poland was nearly a Russian colony until 1991! But now it's over, and Russia and Poland don't have any territorial disputes, come to think of it, they don't even border much anymore(except in former Eastern Prussia).

The eventual score counts.

	13-11-2002 07:58									#100
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Emulation... I thought so. The immortals were an Akhemenid unit.

Tactics
About the Cataphracts and Clibinarii, one has to say that eventhough Roman and Sassanid units shared comparable equipment, their tactics differed significantly at this point.
Whereas Roman Cataphracts and Clibinarii were used primarily as heavy shock cavalry, the Sassanids opted for the use of the bow, instead.
In this respect, they departed from the Parthian tradition that segregated light horse skirmishers from the heavy lance armed chargers.
In DBA and DBM lists later Sassanid cataphracts are represented as lighter than Roman ones, to reflect this change.
One has to say though that later "East" Roman armies used mixed lance/ bow cavalry formations (a 2/1 ratio) within the same unit.

Horses
As to horse quality, the situation was inversed. The Parthian warhorses (called 'Nicaean" in the Roman empire) were the most powerfull ones of their time. The Romans and even the Chinese imported them for a hefty price. The Roman's best horse breed, the Iberian (an arabian offshoot via Carthage) was fast, but could not support as much weight.
Sassanid light horse units still used the parthian steppe pony, I guess.

Sources
Emperor Mauricius "Strategicon" comes from that age, and discusses tactics and formations in detail.
Amongst other things, he states that the Persians were among the few nations of his time that employed disciplined formations and tactics.
At least from his reign onwards Cataphracts were trained to alternate between the use of bow and lance, individually (though in game terms, a cataphract upgrade should have to wait for Justinian, IMHO).

I support the use of Elephants for the Sassanids, since they deployed them on the field up to the battle of Nehavend, against the Arabs.
Elephants were part of Muslim Persian & Khorasmian armies also, not to mention the Indians, Annamese etc.

Ah, yeah, later Roman armies addopted several practices from the Sassanids, like conical helmets and such.

I 've read somewhere that the Cataphract used a Parthian horse, an Avar lance (instead of a pilum), a Hunic bow, a Germanic spatha (as opposed to the gladius) and a Bulgar cloak.
I have no idea about what makes a "kontos" Avar. Must be the laces?

	13-11-2002 14:32									#101
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The generic Roman term for heavy cavalry was cataphract, which may have been celtic in origin. Equites cataphractii were introduced by Hadrian in the 2nd Century, after the Romans had encountered the Sarmations - they were equiped with complete mail or scale coats, spangenhelm (four piece conical helmets used well into the dark ages), carried the kontus lance, and carried no shield. It is possible that some had horse armour but grave stalae of cataphracts show the horses unarmoured. It is postulated that most cataphract units were descended from Sarmations settled by the Romans in Gaul.

Roman Clibanarii were Persian or Parthian in origin (check out the unit names in the Notitia Dignitatum) and were introduced in the 4th Century. Both Persian and Roman 4th century clibanarii were very heavy armoured lancers (there are lots of Sassanid and Roman depictions) who were mounted on armoured horses. It is interesting that all of the Clibanarius units in the later Roman army were senior to the cataphract units.

Later Sassanid armies are described as having lighter armoured cavalry. They used both the bow and kontos, and the Roman army of the 6th Century copied this style. The best troops of this type in Justinians day were the bucellarii of the generals such as Belisarius and Narses.

IMHO you should include cataphracts in the 2nd/3rd century army, supplemented by extra-heavy clibanarii in the 4th century. Give an upgrade to bucellarii in the 6th century.

	14-11-2002 16:41									#102
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quote: Originally posted by fairline The generic Roman term for heavy cavalry was cataphract, which may have been celtic in origin.

Whose origin, the term or the unit?
The term is Greek in origin, "Kataphraktos". It means "all-armored".
It originally referred to Bactrian heavy cavalry, in later Achemenid military. There were "cataphracts" in late Hellenistic armies as well, though they differed in equipment.

I think that Clibinarius is latinized "Klibanophoros", "Kiln-bearer", weird

	14-11-2002 17:57									#103
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Yes "Cataphract" is Greek in origin, it is well known.
Fairline can't mean the unit, since Celts with heavily armored cavalry were non-existent. .
I thought that the bucelarii were mainly "private" forces used by the aristocrats. They were incorporated in the normal army at some time though. Again i state that due to the limited unit slots(remember the Franks and others will have their own units as well,not only the Romans) i believe that a cataphract unit will cover both cataphracts and clibanarii. I read in an Osprey title that the cataphracts too are thought to have riden armored horses.

	14-11-2002 21:00									#104
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Hey, can anyone post some pictures of the Akritas?
All I know of them is that they were multiethnic warlords loosely defending Asia Minor from the Muslims, and that they were later introduced by Michael VIII. in Bythinia and that there were similar units of men known as the Uskok in modern-day Croatia, of which I am a descendant.

	14-11-2002 21:25									#105
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quote: Originally posted by Palaiologos Yes "Cataphract" is Greek in origin, it is well known. Fairline can't mean the unit, since Celts with heavily armored cavalry were non-existent. . I thought that the bucelarii were mainly "private" forces used by the aristocrats. They were incorporated in the normal army at some time though. Again i state that due to the limited unit slots(remember the Franks and others will have their own units as well,not only the Romans) i believe that a cataphract unit will cover both cataphracts and clibanarii. I read in an Osprey title that the cataphracts too are thought to have riden armored horses.

both you and Tanelorn are right, Palaiologos; what I was trying to say was that the cataphract unit names in the Roman army are almost universally celtic - ie the units were probably recruited in Gaul, perhaps from the descendents of the Sarmation military settlers there introduced, I think, by Hadrian or Trajan.

You are also correct in saying that bucellarii were 'private armies'. These household troops, particularly those of Belisarius and Narses were rergarded as the best cavalry in Justinians army.

Have you thought of using multiple units files, as with Red Front or Imperium Romanum to give upgrades rather than using up additional slots?

	15-11-2002 02:57									#106
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quote: Originally posted by fairline Have you thought of using multiple units files, as with Red Front or Imperium Romanum to give upgrades rather than using up additional slots?

Man, I had the exact same thought, just before I read your post. There is this small program that automates the whole proccess I am playing with, for the 1821 thing (which will have to wait for December, with my exams and all).
Example: change Cataphractii to Bucelarii to Optimates to late Cataphracts.
This enables the middle Imperial Roman/ late Imperial Roman/ Byzantine swap.
Is there a way to affect civ/ruler names in the rule files? It doesn't seem to work for me, since it seems the running game overrides these fields (you know, change ruler names at the start of each era/ file swap, or change say the Huns to Mongols)
Oh man Panathinaikos- Fenner Bachtse 4-1
This doesn't even begin to describe how good it feels.
Óýëëïãïò ìåãÜëïò, äåí õðÜñ÷åé Üëëïò...

	15-11-2002 14:17									#107
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Actually i had thought of that "Red front" style multiple files, but i lacked the knowledge to do it.

Valuk, i was planning to post a picture of Akritas ,among others, but found no time to scan it from Osprey's. If it is not done by tommorow you will have to wait for two weeks.

O Panathinaikos tous eliose, alla poloi floroi eiste re paidi mou. Oute pano me Kolokotroni, oute sinthimata, oute tipota. Mono duo fores o ethnikos umnos(apo tous filathlous, oute kan apo ta megaphona) kai ena geloio sinthima "Tourkoi, Tourkoi, mas pernete tsibou....".



I think there is one mounted at the previous page, extreme left in the Roman troops of the 9th century.

Last edited by Palaiologos on 16-11-2002 at 14:22

	17-11-2002 20:46									#108
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You need to create a batch file that the player runs at the appropriate time after saving the game to change units and rules files (include a text prompt in the events file). Have at look at the batch file 'redfront.bat' in Capt Nemo's Red front scenario (edit in notepad rather than run it) to see an example of the necessary structure. You should include the file Delevent.exe to wipe the old events from the scenario save game before overwriting the new events file.

You need to create as many units/terrain/rules/events etc files as necessary for your scenario and call them units1, units2 etc - these are copied over the current unit file when the batch file is run.

Last edited by fairline on 17-11-2002 at 22:20

	19-11-2002 05:05									#109
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I realise you plan to make your own units, Palaiologos, but feel free to use any of these that I've posted on the graphics showcase thread. BTW, all the later Romans have shield designs/colours taken from the Notitia.

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...256#post1459401

	19-11-2002 15:05									#110
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Thanks, i propably will.

Is it true that remnants of the gallant Varangian guard survived until the very siege of Constantinople? There are obscure reports.

I have read that they were replaced with a Cretan unit at the 1420s.

If this is so, were they the same Cretans that, fortified in a tower, repelled wave after wave of Turks that they were finally allowed to leave in peace, in honour of their courage?

	22-11-2002 14:08									#111
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Were Dromont-type ships (galleys) used by the Arabs as well?
In a Byz.manuscript the Arab fleet is thought to be composed of 1000 dromonts plus other vessels.

Or was it a generic term for galley in Roman military thinking?.

	22-11-2002 14:17									#112
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SHIPS:


I plan to give ships decreased stats, to limit their use in naval engagements and transportation. At most they will have A:3 D:2. Naval bombardment was not that common in the Middle ages.

Ship units

Quintireme? not sure.
Galley/Dromont (for Romans).
Dromont w Greek fire(Romans only, any better name?).
Great Galley

All will be able to transport 1-2 units apart from the Dromont w Greek fire. I know that even later Roman ships were not equiped with cannons, as were those of Venice,Genoa and Piza, but i will allow that in the scenario. (talking about the Great galley).

Last edited by Palaiologos on 22-11-2002 at 14:48

	22-11-2002 14:44									#113
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MAP:

It seems i am not going to use my own map. I have found an excellent map here(Harlan's Greater Europe or something) which i will modify a bit (Greece and Asia Minor).

CITIES:

I have an idea about the airbase. They will be "Towns" that will be defended and captured just like an airbase. They will give the production and food bonus of an airbase. The reason for that is that i believe civ's city refers to production and trade centers. So cities such as Jerusalem, Antioch, Thessalonica, Ragusa etc.. will be included as normal cities while others such as Germanikeia, Damieta, Patra, in which important events took place, but had no economic value will be represented by the "Town", or whatever i name the airbase.

	22-11-2002 14:46									#114
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quote: Originally posted by fairline I realise you plan to make your own units, Palaiologos, but feel free to use any of these that I've posted on the graphics showcase thread. BTW, all the later Romans have shield designs/colours taken from the Notitia. http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...256#post1459401

The Notitia was illustrated???

	22-11-2002 15:01									#115
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I have the road network of Britain, Asia Minor and the Balkans.

Any info on Aegyptus', Gallia's and Spain's?.

I need major military routes, not simply trade roads.

	22-11-2002 17:34									#116
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quote: Originally posted by Palaiologos The Notitia was illustrated???

All the surviving copies of the Notitia Dignitatun MS are copies of a single original, the Codex Spirensis, which has now been lost. The 2 copies that have been subsequently been published are dated 1436 (in the Bodleian Library in Oxford) and 1550 (in Munich). The Munich copy was traced from the original Roman document and was published by Otto Seeck. I think that a new reprint is planned (?).

Both versions have virtually all of the Western Field Army shields in colour, and a large number of the Eastern Field Army shields - there are some discrepensies in terms of colour between the two, but they agree on the shield designs.

The two Osprey titles dealing with late Roman infantry and cavalry include a limited selection of shields from the Notitia in colour. 'The Armies and Enemies of Imperial Rome' by Phil Barker (pub WRG) includes complete black and white drawings of the shields, with a colour key. It also includes the order of battle I posted a while back.

	30-11-2002 07:40									#117
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Hmm.....

Doesn't anybody have an opinion about the ideas i posted here?

What about the info on the road network?

The ships?

The Dromonts?



Anyway.....


This is my first graphic for the scenario:
A Byzantine emissary(diplomat).

Attachment: unitsbyzemissary.gif
This has been downloaded 90 time(s).

	30-11-2002 15:55									#118
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Well, most of the info (except for Germania) doesen't really sepparate between civilan and military roads.
It's hard to describe them, but I do have a few maps I can mail you if you want. If so, please mail me at Stefan.Haertel@t-online.de (I'm not so overly keen on posting them here, sorry).
I'll also try and find some info on the Roman navy, but I'm quite sure that there are some people here who can help you with that.

	01-12-2002 05:06									#119
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Well, early Roman dromonds were around since Diocletian's time. The Romans had no real naval adversaries in the med (mare nostrum), at the time. They had to cope with piracy though. These were small 20+- oars for each bank, that filled the modern corvette role. These were dwarfed by both earlier and later ships. 7thc. dromonds that fought off the Arabs were much, much larger, for instance.

	01-12-2002 17:44									#120
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Interesting, but that is not what i asked about the dromonds.

In 745 or 746 a large Arab fleet was destroyed by the Byzantines near Cyprus. The arab fleet is said to heve comprised of 1000 dromonts of which only 3 escaped.

I want to know if the Arabs used Dromonts as well, or was it simply a generic military word for ships in Roman vocabulary.