21-10-2002 22:50									#121
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quote: It gives moral right to modern Russians to hate modern people from all of those countries. Their next generations who don't responsible for this.

I'm confused, Serb. The first sentence, I very much disagree with. Yeah, the Nazis and Nazi sympathizers killed a lot of people. That does not, however, give the "moral right" to hate all Lithuanians, Latvians or whatever. Because not all of them did it. The second part, if I understand it correctly, is that the generations following WWII bear no responsibility for the transgressions of (some of) their forebears. That I agree with.

The Nazis were a scourge on humanity. It was good that the SU defeated them. However, the occupation of Eastern Europe following the war was pretty bad (which you have acknowledged). Obviously no one (except Floyd) thinks it would be better if the Nazis had won. That's ridiculous (in fairness to Floyd, in his construct of alternative history, if the Nazis had taken down the SU, the US still would have taken down the Nazis, resulting in a free Europe & Russia, as opposed the the free West vs. the occupied East).

So, from what I have seen in this thread, if one ignores the unneeded fluff, spam, and inflamatory rhetoric, most people agree with the following:

1) Defeat of Nazi Germany = good.
2) Soviet role in that defeat = good.
3) Soviet occupation of Eastern Europe = bad.

The only real debate revolves around the relative "badness" of the Nazis and the Soviet occupation post-WWII. I think that's a silly debate. Hence my "frying pan to the fire" comment. Both Nazi and Soviet occupation was bad. Each in its own way, and quite probably which one was worse than the other varied for individuals and groups of people. Morally, they were both repugnant, but I do think the Nazis win the "most vile" trophy.

-Arrian

	21-10-2002 23:28									#122
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Arrian, you didn't noticed first paragraph or my English become worse and worse?
Just read it again and please explain where I did grammar errors.
I said: (perhaps I shoul add numbers "1)" and "2)" to point exactly what I mean. But I thought it's clear enough)
So:

"Arrian,
I don’t advocate that Soviet domination over Eastern Europe was a right thing. I advocate that two lines below are bullsh*t:

1) Germans + Italians+ Rumanians + Finns + Lithuanians + Estonians + Latvians + Hungarians + others who were on nazi side, killed 27 millions of Soviet people (majority of whom were Russians) in 1941-1945. It gives moral right to modern Russians to hate modern people from all of those countries. Their next generations who don't responsible for this.

2) Eastern Europe suffered from communists during 1945-1991 it gives moral right to population of those countries to hate modern Russians. Their next generations who don't responsible for this.

I mean that second and third paragraph (marked by "1)" and "2)" ) is equal nonsense from my point of view. That both of those statements are bullsh*t.

	21-10-2002 23:43									#123
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*smacks forehead*

You are correct, sir. I somehow missed the lead-in line:

quote: I advocate that two lines below are bullsh*t

Monday mornings suck.

-Arrian

	21-10-2002 23:51									#124
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quote: Monday mornings suck.

Amen
You were missed in action during weekend?
Fortunately it's Tuesday morning here and after less then six hours I should be on my job, so I'm going to if you don't mind.

	22-10-2002 00:38									#125
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Sleep well.

Yeah, I typically don't log on during my weekends. I did actually check in briefly yesterday, but only for a few minutes.

-Arrian

	22-10-2002 02:21									#126
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Originally posted by Serb
Later panasonic, later. I have other things to do now.


Serb, at least you've admitted that you are incapable to argue to me .

	22-10-2002 04:44									#127
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara The ME is part of Asia, that makes Israel an Asian country.

This is a classic case of American literalism.

Can't you people see the deeper levels of the English language?

	22-10-2002 04:55									#128
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In this particular case, it was an Asian man who noted Israel is part of Asia.

	22-10-2002 04:57									#129
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Nazi Occupation -> Soviet Occupation = "From the frying pan into the fire" -Arrian

True but nazi rule was far worse. Soviet rule was repressive but nowhere near as bad nazi rule. For a start the communists didn't set up extermination camps. They also allowed national governments and national development. Sure, it was on the Soviet model with all its weaknesses but by comparison the nazis basically wanted to destroy the societies of Eastern Europe, colonise the whole area and turn the people into slaves, especially the slavic peoples. After Stalin died the Warsaw Pact regimes were relatively benign - as long noone tried to break away from Moscow.

So again I think everyone owes a debt of gratitude to those who fought nazism in the Great Patriotic War.

And please remember that after what had happened to Russia in World War II, particulary the devastating surprise attack causing at least 20 million deaths, Stalin felt the Soviet Union had a right to friendly states on its borders. Britain and the United States were unhappy at first, particularly over the fate of Poland, but came to understand and accept this. That acceptance set the scene for a very long period, almost 50 years, of peace in Europe. We should be thankful for that.

	22-10-2002 05:32									#130
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Nice holding out, Serb Good points, Che and AH.

While I'm sorry for what happened to EE and I don't think EE should be thankful to the USSR for the post-war period, yet it is wrong to paint everything only in black and white. And the good guys here already explained that. In essence, a large part of the problem reduces to the fact that communism didn't work out. It it worked out, everything would look very different now.

As an empire, the Soviet Union was rather benevolent. It fought for a noble cause (which finally didn't work). As already mentioned here, it cared about the development of its satellites and contributed $$ more than ever received back. The classical imperial scheme of colony exploitation didn't take place here.

	22-10-2002 05:42									#131
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Well, what do you expect? We spent trillions of dollars and lots of sweat and blood putting the stake in the heart of communism. I have no interest in seeing communism rehabilitated at the expense of facism.

That, DanS, tells about you (and perhaps other Americans) more than you may realize. It tells that you are deeply and inherently biased against everything related to the Soviet Union. My recollection of your past posts is quite in agreement with this thesis.

Well, your bias is humanly understandable: after all, you spent trillions of dollars. Nevertheless, a bias is a bias.

Edit: grammar

	22-10-2002 05:44									#132
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quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond As an empire, the Soviet Union was rather benevolent. It fought for a noble cause (which finally didn't work).

hehehe

	22-10-2002 05:46									#133
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quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond As an empire, the Soviet Union was rather benevolent. It fought for a noble cause (which finally didn't work). As already mentioned here, it cared about the development of its satellites and contributed $$ more than ever received back. The classical imperial scheme of colony exploitation didn't take place here.

The classical imperial scheme of colony exploitation is a myth by your standards. Overall, the Europeans spent more money building infrastructure and exsuring stability than they got back from exploitation.

	22-10-2002 05:53									#134
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quote: Originally posted by Sonic Hello, No, we didn't benefited from USSR. They just destroyed everything. If not USSR we now would probably be like Netherlands or Switzerland - small but rich country, as we were before WW2. And now what we are? A poor country full of Russians, who are mostly criminals, addicts and mafiamen by the way.

You didn't benefit from the USSR? What about the city of Vilnius? *sigh* Unthankful Lithuanians...

In Russia, most Russians are not criminals. If they are criminals in your country, perhaps you should think which of your policies are wrong.

	22-10-2002 05:53									#135
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Vagabond, probably if communism would have worked out it would have been better (however I think communism can't actually work. The only country which is near true communism is Lybia, and that is only because Lybia can afford that - most of the money required to support half-communism (Yamahiriah as they calls it themselves) comes from oil trade), but even if it would have worked out it wouldn't have compensated the loss of independence. Probably it would have been grayer then but definitely not white.

USSR invested to it's sattleites because it needed to if it wanted to support their puppet-governments there. Americans also helped Europe with Marshall plan for example. Both USA and USSR in the cold war needed to invest as much money as possible into their supporters to stop them going to the other side.

	22-10-2002 05:56									#136
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What about city of Vilnius? Do you mean giving it to Lithuania in exchange to annexation? In the end, we've got nothing and Russia got whole country.

As for Russians being criminals in Lithuania, I've already stated the reasons - it's mostly because some of them thinks that Russia should still rule, etc.

	22-10-2002 06:06									#137
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"It tells that you are deeply and inherently biased towards everything related to the Soviet Union."

No apologies from this quarter, however you want to characterize it. The SU was all about bondage of the individual to the state and a devaluation of human life. I see very little difference between this and Nazism. "It was a good cause but ultimately failed" is total bullshit in my book--a whitewash of history.

By my calculation, every man, woman, and child in the US bears at least $10,000 in debt for money that went to spend the SU into oblivion (yourself included as a presumed US taxpayer, myself and Uncle Sam thank you very much ). That's a lot of butter.

Last edited by DanS on 22-10-2002 at 06:12

	22-10-2002 06:13									#138
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quote: Originally posted by Felch X The classical imperial scheme of colony exploitation is a myth by your standards. Overall, the Europeans spent more money building infrastructure and exsuring stability than they got back from exploitation.

No, that's hardly possible, for it would contradict to the greed principle. The classical empires pumped out more resources than they invested into infrastructure. But of course this doesn't want to say that they didn't contribute to the development of their colonies.

	22-10-2002 06:16									#139
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quote: Originally posted by Sonic USSR invested to it's sattleites because it needed to if it wanted to support their puppet-governments there. Americans also helped Europe with Marshall plan for example. Both USA and USSR in the cold war needed to invest as much money as possible into their supporters to stop them going to the other side.

I agree with that. I believe that both the Soviet Union and the United States were/are empires of a new kind, not just classical empires.

	22-10-2002 06:22									#140
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quote: Originally posted by Sonic What about city of Vilnius? Do you mean giving it to Lithuania in exchange to annexation? In the end, we've got nothing and Russia got whole country.

OK, but still it's not quite correct of you to say that you didn't benefit at all from the Soviet Union.

quote: As for Russians being criminals in Lithuania, I've already stated the reasons - it's mostly because some of them thinks that Russia should still rule, etc.

Perhaps it's just your (incorrect) perception. I don't believe that Russians in Lithuania think that your country should be part of Russia. It's nonsense. You, the Lithuanian state, share some part of responsibility that these people don't feel themselves comfortably enough.

	22-10-2002 06:25									#141
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Eastern European countries should be thankful to me. It was me that led Czechs to victory over those evil Slovs a few years back. That's right. Me baby, *me*!

	22-10-2002 06:28									#142
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quote: Originally posted by DanS No apologies from this quarter, however you want to characterize it. The SU was all about bondage of the individual to the state and a devaluation of human life. I see very little difference between this and Nazism. "It was a good cause but ultimately failed" is total bullshit in my book--a whitewash of history.

I'm sorry but I can't see a political system based on socialism, granted a very deeply flawed and ugly version, as being as bad as a political system like nazism and fascism that was based racism and pure hatred and murder. I can't see that at all.

In their own way the Sovs tried to lift up Eastern Europe and improve the standard of living of its peoples and make it a showcase to the West. They should be thankful for that. If the Sovs had acted like the nazis they would have gone in and utterly destroyed every society in Eastern Europe that fought with the Germans during the war, which was most of them. By and large they didn't do that and its a credit to them.

I think Russians must have big hearts, unlike some you Yanks apparently.

The Cold War is over Dan. Get over it, move on.

	22-10-2002 06:33									#143
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quote: Originally posted by DanS "It tells that you are deeply and inherently biased towards everything related to the Soviet Union." No apologies from this quarter, however you want to characterize it. The SU was all about bondage of the individual to the state and a devaluation of human life. I see very little difference between this and Nazism. "It was a good cause but ultimately failed" is total bullshit in my book--a whitewash of history.

Bondage of the individual to the state is a little bit less evil than killing out inferior races, don't you think? As for "devaluation of human life", this is correct only about the period of repressions, but not about the period when the USSR became a more civilized country.

quote: By my calculation, every man, woman, and child in the US bears at least $10,000 in debt for money that went to spend the SU into oblivion (yourself included as a presumed US taxpayer, myself and Uncle Sam thank you very much ). That's a lot of butter.

I wasn't a US taxpayer back then . I don't deserve your gratitude.

	22-10-2002 06:39									#144
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"If the Sovs had acted like the nazis they would have gone in and utterly destroyed every society in Eastern Europe that fought with the Germans during the war"

Pure conjecture on your part. We never saw a post-war Nazism to make that comparison.

"By and large they didn't do that and its a credit to them."

Again, this is trying to rehabilitate communism on the back of nazism. What a silly exercise.

"I wasn't a US taxpayer back then"

Vagabond: By the magic of compounding interest, you too can participate in the defeat of the SU to the tune of about $750 a year.

Last edited by DanS on 22-10-2002 at 06:45

	22-10-2002 06:39									#145
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quote: The SU was all about bondage of the individual to the state and a devaluation of human life.

It depends on what decade, but the US did the same, they just hid under a noble guise. The oppression and inequality didn't lie so much in the government as in the SU, but in the minds of the American people, with copious amounts of racism and crime. To quote the guenius, Sean Connery(in the movie, the Russia House): "I like Russia. It's just as corrupt as we are, but there's less bullshit"

	22-10-2002 06:47									#146
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse I think Russians must have big hearts ...

	22-10-2002 06:51									#147
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Vagabond: By the magic of compounding interest, you too can participate in the defeat of the SU to the tune of about $750 a year.

If so, I'd prefer not to defeat the SU back then, but rather to receive all this money in cash here and now.

	22-10-2002 06:52									#148
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quote: Originally posted by DanS "If the Sovs had acted like the nazis they would have gone in and utterly destroyed every society in Eastern Europe that fought with the Germans during the war" Pure conjecture on your part. We never saw a post-war Nazism to find out.

German forces went into Poland and Russia with orders to anhiliate communism and with it slavic society. This policy was carried out in all occuppied areas. Haven't you heard of the Commissar Order? It wasn't just Jews who were murdered on en masse in Russia and Poland. So we know exactly what the nazis would do because they did it. Post war it would have only got worse. They wanted to reduce the whole population to a leaderless pool of slave labour, colonise the whole area with Germans and steal everything. Did the Soviets do that in Eastern Europe? NO.

How can you comment on issues like this when you, like so many of your Americans are so pig ignorant of the basic historical facts?

quote: "By and large they didn't do that and its a credit to them." Again, this is trying to rehabilitate communism on the back of nazism. What a silly exercise.

No it isn't. Stalinist communism was evil but not as evil as nazism. Are you incapable of making distinctions by degree? How many more planes have to crash into your buildings before you stop seeing the world in black and white?

	22-10-2002 07:26									#149
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AH: I will not defend the Nazis to any degree. If you would say that the Nazis were 9/10 evil and the SU 8/10 evil, especially under Stalin, I would agree. Those are shades of gray to which I could subscribe. But communism goes nowhere in this comparison. Nowhere near "it was a good cause, but..."

"and with it slavic society"

And no less than did Stalin.

"Are you incapable of making distinctions by degree?"

My grayscale has quite a bit more contrast on the lighter side.

	22-10-2002 07:35									#150
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I won't argue Stalinism was good but you really need to read up on what the Nazis were trying to do to see why their depravity left Stalin in the shade.