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Mihai
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Bucharest, Romania
Jan 2000
time: 07:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Alexander's Horse
That's true but did you know the SS were horrified by the cruelty of Rumanian progroms against the Jews? The Germans preferred a nice clean shooting or gassing. |
If this isn't one of your trolls (you are famous for trolls), please tell me more about that.
AFAIK romanians legionares ("Iron Guard" or "Legion of archangel Mihail") killed about 2,000 jews during their rebelion in 20-22 ian 1941. Also jews in Bessarabia were very badly treated after Barbarossa because they helped soviets in 1940 (or at least those were the accusations)
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Mihai
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Bucharest, Romania
Jan 2000
time: 07:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Serb
So, the Stalin ordered to deportate nationalities who backstabed SU and joined nazi in their war vs. SU. |
Those nationalities didn't "backstabed" Soviet Union, they grab the chance to fight against the occupant (Red) army.
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Mihai
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Bucharest, Romania
Jan 2000
time: 07:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Serb
And just said thats a bit unfair that deportations in SU during WW2 consider as the "one of the greatest crimes against humanity in the 20th century" while the same "ethnic cleansing" in USA and GB consider as Ok. |
Those deported in USA and GB lived in bad condition but only few died because of those conditon and they could go back right after war and later they received compensation. In SU the deportated were transported in awful condition and send to regions with very harsh condition from where they could return only after tens of years.
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Mihai
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Bucharest, Romania
Jan 2000
time: 07:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Serb
Of course, but actually I don’t think Soviet gang was created only via military force, iirc there were government overthrows lead by local communists in those countries, and right after the war communists were very popular as most uncompromising resistance fighters during occupation. |
That was true for Yugoslavia and Albania. Romanian communists were very few, Hungary fought untill the total occupation of the country. The Poland resistence was nationalistic, not communist. In Baltic countries I guess that there were more volunteers in Waffen SS than in communist resistence.
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Serb
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Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Nov 2001
time: 11:23
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quote:
Originally posted by notyoueither
No Serb. Most victims were Ukrainian, Georgian, Byelorussian, Siberian, and on and on. By far. Remember them? |
Oh... I see now, you are real expert about this subject. 
Siberians? Very funny, a words of real expert. There is no such nationality as Siberians and never was. Siberians it’s the same Russians who live in Siberia.
I guess these four names it's a full list of nationalities of SU known to you.
Do yourself a favor and make a basic research about this. Russians were/are absolute majority of population of SU/RF. Russians were the absolute majority of people killed by Stalin during repressions. And every one who don't know it, know nothing about Stalin atrocities.
quote:
I think I understand Russians far more than you wish. Some of you want to hold on to some vestige of past glories. You want to hold on so much that you will excuse anything, you will defend almost anything. I also understand that not all Russians are Stalinists, and not all Russians are, or were Communists. |
You described how you WANT to see us. You want to see us as losers who are whining about their defeat. Fine, portray us as you wish, it will change nothing.
As I said you will never understand us.
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Serb
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Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Nov 2001
time: 11:23
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quote:
No, I really don't think they hate ALL of them. |
Go to Baltic States and say something on Russian language or said that you are Russian. Then try to repeat the same about hatred towards Russians, here on Apolyton, if you will be able of course, because those friendly people could break your fingers.
quote:
Just because a lituanian apolytener doesn't love russians, you think that they teach that in school? |
Again go in Baltic states and you’ll see that he is typical representative of their culture.
quote:
You mean the Russian (and their descendants) that were bring in big numbers against the local population wish? I guess that most of the lituanians consider that those russian came with Red Army and should go back with it. |
I mean Russians who were born there, whose ancestors were born there and who consider those countries as their Motherland, because they never had any other Motherland.
Do you have any idea how many peoples of different nationalities live in Russia? IIRC, here lives people of 192 different nationalities. If for example major of Moscow will declare someday that Russia is for Russians only, and will start to persecute national minorities and push them away from city governed by him, you will call him a nazi who commit crimes against humanity. The governments of Baltic during last years doing exactly the same and you don’t say a single word. Hypocritical bastards.
And by the way to your knowledge, Russians start to settle near Baltic see not in 1945, but MUCH earlier, even earlier then XVIII century when those lands were attached to Russian Empire after defeat of Sweden. Some of their modern territory iirc belonged to ancient Russian city of Novgorod when it was an independent trade republic.
quote:
As I said in my previous post, graves should be left alone, but they have the right to put/get down the monuments as they wish. |
The monuments dedicated to people who fought vs. nazism?
quote:
You say "they fought vs. nazi", they say "they fought for the occupant soviets" |
Could you imagine a situation when modern Germans are saying-“...we are saying that they weren't nazi, they just fought vs. the occupant soviets”?
I can’t imagine such situation.
Why for you it’s “Ok” to say- “our local nazi were heroes, they were trying to defend our country from Soviets”?
quote:
You mean dedicated to those who fought for the independence of the country? |
I mean “people” who burned entire towns with inhabitants locked in houses, burned them alive, everyone of them including women, children and elders. I mean “people” who love to torture their victims just for fun. I mean “people” who support idea of their supremacy over other races. I mean nazi beasts. I mean beasts that fought for idea of extermination of “inferior” races, not for independence, as you describe it. The beasts those were wearing nazi uniform.
Could anyone tell me is there a single monument in Germany, which represent a human wearing nazi uniform and holding a gun, with slogan near- “Dedicated to memory of heroes who fought for independence of our country from Soviet occupants”?
I guess no one.
Why? WHY? WHY such monument dedicated to nazi could stand in the middle of Talin, a European capital?
WHAT THE HELL IS THIS, IF NOT A REHABILITATION OF NAZISM?
quote:
Normaly I would be upset be the "****" reply from Serb, but I expected an emotional burst. Russians solders didn't die by milions to eliberate East Europe, but to defeat those who attacked them (see Great Patriotic War). |
Idiotic statement. So, you liberated yourselves?
quote:
That doesn't mean that we should be thankful to those who take our land (Bessarabia),... |
Later boy, a bit later.
quote:
...delayed recognision of Romania's change of side at August 23rd 1944 (while they take without fight thousand of prisoners and send them to Siberia even if the rest of the Romanian army fought side by side with Red Army), impose heavy retribution (300 milions $), and impose the communist regim (local - illegal - communist party numbered only 2,000 men). |
And you are whining about this? You should have prayed to all gods that Soviets didn’t acted like Romanian nazi forces in Russia. Do you have any idea how your nazi acted in Soviet Union? Do you have any idea how many people they killed and tortured to death? Do you have any idea how many millions of people from Soviet occupied territories they moved away from their homes to works in death camps? Do you have any idea who many cities, towns and villages they destroyed? Do you have any idea what material harm they done to Soviets? In compare with this harm these 300 mln$ is drop in the ocean.
I guess you don’t have any idea about this. It’s your luck, your great luck that Soviet soldier didn’t acted in Romania how your soldiers acted in Soviet Union. Huge numbers of Soviet soldiers have wives, children or parents killed by nazi army, and you were the part of this army. So, thank all goods that Soviets didn’t revenge for their losses.
quote:
I didn't said that nazis were nice guys, but Soviet Russians were brutal occupants. If Russia is the enemy, those who fought against it, are considered heroes (regardless of their ideology). |
You seems to do not ****ing understand one simple thing.
IT CAN’T BE REGARDLESS OF IDEOLOGY.
To your knowledge, after the war there was Nuremberg’s tribunal. Not only it was the tribunal over nazi war criminals. IT WAS TRIBUNAL OVER NAZISM AS IDEOLOGY. Not only war criminals were found guilty in crimes over humanity. Nazism as ideology was found guilty in crimes against humanity. It was found an INHUMAN ideology.
What are you saying and what governments of Baltic States do is attempt to rehabilitate nazism.
quote:
Bessarabia was part of Moldavia untill 1812 and the majority of the population was romanian. |
Using your logic: Bessarabia was part of Russia until 1918, until you took it by force. Soviets done the same in 1939- return it via force.
quote:
And don't put 'k' in my name, please. |
Ok, I guess I maid a grammar error. I suggest it’s your real name, because it sounds very similar to Russian Mikhail (Mike).
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Serb
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Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Nov 2001
time: 11:23
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quote:
Stalin did not save russia form the Nazis, russians(and ukranians and all the others) did. |
And who do you think all those people were if not 'soldiers of communist government'?
Sure first of all they were patriots, but they were lead by communists. I guess you just don't know about role communist party played.
quote:
Stalin did not save russia form the Nazis, russians(and ukranians and all the others) did. A competent leader would ahve done it quicker and wouldn't have had most of its army destroyed in the 1st few months. |
Oh sure, modern Englishman could know about this more then for example men who participated in this war (my grandfather) and who said me once that we would never won this war without Stalin.
IIRC it was the Russian historian Karamzin who said this (I doubt I could translate it proplerly): “The history don’t know “IF” ”
You may create your theories about “what if…” such as “what if there was no revolution in Russia and it was monarchy or democracy when nazi invaded” It change nothing, historians don’t operate with those “IF” theories, they operate with historical facts. One of those facts is that communist government ruled Russia in its darkest hour. The rest is “IF” theories which could be left to sci-fi writers, because for historians those theories are useless.
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Serb
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Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Nov 2001
time: 11:23
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quote:
It's not news that eyes see and ears hear what the mind tells them to see and hear, and the mind can be manipulated to think what it is told. Man can look at an ugly black table and sigh: "Oh I like that white chair, it's SO beautiful!" if someone with authority tells him/her to see a beautiful white chair. |
What are you smoking? You are sounds like hippy.
quote:
Do all the Russian people, even the young, really, really believe that the Soviet supremacy was loved by the neighbouring countries? |
Of course not.
All Russian people, even the young, really, really believe that nazism was plague of XX century and that nothing could compares with nazism in scale of evilness.
quote:
The Soviet system was efficient in one aspect in addition to creating environmental catastrophes by reckless pollution: they succeeded in manipulating the whole nation. It frightens me to think about it. A nation-wide hypnosis. |
Obviously you are ‘flower child’ or member of “Green peace”
p.s.I hope it doesn’t count as personal insult, I was trying to joking. Don’t hurt me uncle Ming... please….
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Serb
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Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Nov 2001
time: 11:23
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quote:
Those deported in USA and GB lived in bad condition but only few died because of those conditon and they could go back right after war and later they received compensation. In SU the deportated were transported in awful condition and send to regions with very harsh condition from where they could return only after tens of years. |
Say in to Japanese-Americans who went through American camps and lived like criminals, separated by barbed wire. IIRC deported in SU lived in houses, and weren’t separated from other society by barbed wire.
As for harsh conditions, I lived here in the terrible place with harsh conditions known as Siberia, and my ancestors lived here and I’m not dead yet. And I prefer to live here then in the middle of Nevada (IIRC) desert where Japanese-Americans were put.
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Serb
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Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Nov 2001
time: 11:23
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quote:
Those nationalities didn't "backstabed" Soviet Union, they grab the chance to fight against the occupant (Red) army. |
And what is the definition of backstabbing in your understanding?
As for me everyone who joined invader’s forces in war vs. it’s own country is traitor and backstabber.
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Serb
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Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Nov 2001
time: 11:23
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[QUOTE] Originally posted by Seeker
Ooops...triple post.
Last edited by Serb on 23-10-2002 at 22:39
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Serb
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Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Nov 2001
time: 11:23
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Ooops…triple post.
Last edited by Serb on 23-10-2002 at 19:27
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Heresson
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of frogs
Jun 2000
time: 06:23
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quote:
Unlike for example Polish minority, these Russians never assimilated into culture and they still thinks Russia is superior
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Poles didn't have to adapt to Lithuanian culture - it were Lithuanians to adapt Polish one.
quote:
As for USA< you are maybe true but Britain didn't wanted to handle EE to Soviets. They instead tried to get as much as possible and they agreed on some pact later with SU which saved Greece and Austria I believe from Soviet influence. They also tried to save Poland, but they weren't able to do so.
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They haven't tried. Polish emigrational gouverment was waring them about the danger, but USA
and Britain were dumb enough to not listen to it.
Anyway Poland has many reasons to not be thankful to USSR - it took a half of Polish pre-war territory, almost exactly according to what they took with Hitler's agreement.It also reduced Poland to a vassal status. However, I thuink that Poland has more reasons to be thankful to USSR than to Britain or USA who were pretending that they defend Polish interest in the east,
having resigned of it in Teheran already. Also, it was USSR to force through bigger recompensates for Poland in the west (still smaller than eastern losses) than Britain and USA
wanted to give us. Not minding that our dear allies USA and Britain left for example the case of Lwów "to the goodwill of mister Stalin" - USSR attacked us, ate half of us and raped us,
but nothing more was expected from it. We expected some help from our western allies and we didn't get any - and it was a more sad thing.
quote:
Poland has always had to choose between Germany and Russia. The silly Poles choose neither and get carved up over and over again
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that's about true when it comes to 1939; Hitler, in exchange for Gdañsk and alliance, oferred us entire Ukraine after a common war with USSR - theoretically if we agreed, we would have been much better off today than we are. Earlier USSR proposed us a common politics against
Balthic states - we said no as well, because of dumb docency.
quote:
Poland wasn't ally of SU. In fact in 30s it considered as more probable enemy for Soviets. Because at early 20s those peacefull people attacked Soviets and torn a part of territory belonged to Ukraine and Byelorussia, exact the same territories which Stalin returned to Ukraine and Byelorussia in 1939 after division of Poland. And btw, he presented nice part of those territories to Lithuania.
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Young Soviet state at those time dreamed about world revolution - and it was it that wanted to dsestroy Poland, not the other way round. The mentioned territories didn't belong to Ukraine
or Byelorussia - their status wasn't yet settled and You had the same right to them as we did.
I emphasise that in 1939, before new deal with Hitler (in which influences in Lithuania were sold for part of Poland), it annected territories that never were object of Ukrainian. Byelorussian, of whoever's pretensions.
By calling this territory this way, You're repeating nazi propaganda; these territories weren't a German territory carved out so that Poland had some seacoast, they were part of Polish province of Pomorze Gdañskie/Wschodnie that belonged to Poland before the partages, and it should be called like that - Eastern Pomerania.
quote:
How did Stalin return territories to the Ukraine, the Ukraine wasn't independant.
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in fact it was for a while, before peacefull Soviet Union attacked it and despite Polish help, managed to annect it.
quote:
That acceptance set the scene for a very long period, almost 50 years, of peace in Europe. We should be thankful for that.
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And should have we been thankfull to Milosevic because He was "bringing peace" to Kosovo?
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Arrian
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Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:23
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quote:
USSR attacked us, ate half of us and raped us,
but nothing more was expected from it. We expected some help from our western allies and we didn't get any - and it was a more sad thing. |
This is why I cringe every time one of our (USA) politicians gets up and starts spouting all sorts of flowery rhetoric about how we're going to fight for freedom and democracy. Because, even if we do some good, it will fall well short of the EXPECTATIONS of those who listened to our bullshit.
In short, Poland was mistreated by the USSR far more than by the West, but because the West made promises it could not/would not keep, the West takes even more blame than the country that "attacked, ate half, and raped" Poland. From the point of view of an American, that's really frustrating.
-Arrian
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Ned
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of Aptos, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Arrian
This is why I cringe every time one of our (USA) politicians gets up and starts spouting all sorts of flowery rhetoric about how we're going to fight for freedom and democracy. Because, even if we do some good, it will fall well short of the EXPECTATIONS of those who listened to our bullshit.
In short, Poland was mistreated by the USSR far more than by the West, but because the West made promises it could not/would not keep, the West takes even more blame than the country that "attacked, ate half, and raped" Poland. From the point of view of an American, that's really frustrating.
-Arrian |
Arrian, When did we say we, the US, were fighting for Poland in WWII? The Poles did not change any position to their detriment because of anything we said.
It was the Brits that asked them to stand firm against Hitler. This, when it was too late to oppose Hitler militarily without getting what we got, six years of death and destruction on a scale never before seen in human history.
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Serb
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Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Nov 2001
time: 11:23
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quote:
Originally posted by DanS
I think the majority of Americans would take a larger view and think totalitarianism was the plague of XX century. This would include Facism and Communism, and would mention Hitler, Stalin, and Mao in one sentence. |
“And you could be my brother,
No matter you see only Black or White”
M. Jackson (Serb’s remake)
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Sonic
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Vilnius, Lithuania
Dec 2001
time: 07:23
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Heresson...
I've talked about current days, not about medieval period. In current days it was Polish minority which was assimilated into Lithuanian culture, not vice-versa obviously.
Serb... I also do not know why I am still discussing with you because it seems your prejustice, just like true nazi's one, is unchangeble. However, I will better will be the one who has last word since than it would mean that I was right and you can no longer argue against me. Probably this won't last forever anyways.
Well, answers to your post.
About Russians who left - most of them left in the first years of independence, mostly because it was Soviet government who sent them to Lithuanian SSR to work, they had all their "homeland" (family, friends, etc.) somewhere else. They considered themselves Russians from Russia, not Lithuanian Russians, thus they left. Current 8% is very stable however. No one is pushed to leave the country and everybody has citizenship.
As for vandalism, German WW2 army graes are also being vandalised. It is very strange that you are claiming what you actually don't know. Saying "vandals leaves plates with nazi slogans but removes ones with SOviet slogans" is absolute nonsense (and I doubt you can even possibly know what vandals does/doesn't in Lithuania). Ones who steals metal plates because of value of metal (and that is probably 70% of vandals) doesn't probably even reads what is written on those plates. Other 30% of vandals would be various drunks, who also doesn't care what to destroy.
As for Latvia, I don't think this is some sort of nazism. Various anti-immigration policies are set in all countries. You wouldn't be happy yourself if Chechenyans would make 50% of Russian people for example. Because those Russians moved to Latvia at a time Latvia was annexed and couldn't control it's borders, they are able to recognise them as illegal immigrants. Anyway, Latvia did granted citizenship for Russians who lived there before Soviet Union (and their decendants), so you can't call that actual nazism against Russian people. This is more like de-Sovietization for me. By the way, as far as I remember you are Latvian yourself, why are you bashing Latvia so much then (or am I mixing you with someone?).
As for Belarus, this is probably because both Byelorussians and Russians are Slavic and they both are Orthodox. Same religion and ethnical group makes it more able for two nations to live together. However, everywhere where two nations makes about 30-70 percent of population each and both nations are from different ethnical groups and religion, tension will always happen. Look to Israel as a very good example. However, Israel can't/shouldn't remove citizenship from Palestinians, since Palestinians lived there before Jews moved in (I mean the new Israel of course). However this is another discution - I don't want to start yet another Israeli/Palestinian debate. I'll just say that for example in Latvia, all Russians who didn't got citizenship moved in in last 50 years. They did never had Latvian citizenship before, nor their parents/grandparents/great grandparents did.
As for SU lagers, there were many of them. Also, USSR was in quite a good geographical position to need no concentration camps - USSR was huge itself and in SIberia climate was very cold, thus Soviets just exiled people there. Many of them died there, probably same percent as in concentration camps if not more.
Some retals to your insults on Lithuania and my opinion:
Your words: Lithuanians shouldn’t be thankful to SU for liberation from nazim, because we in Lithuania prefer to be nazi then commies
My answer: True
Your words: because when were under nazi, there were capitalism and economy was great which means that we would be richer
My answer: Half true. Not because we are greedy as you make to think from your words obviously, but everybody would like to live in a rich country not a poor one. If somebody offer you to have the same economy as in western Europe for example, I doubt you'd refuse. And obviously capitalism is better than communism (socialism, because there were never true communism in USSR)
Your words: And Hitler didn’t hurt Lithuanians, because our race is pure. So, all we have to do is to burn Jews, Russians, Poles, Ukrainians, Beylorussians and other “human crap” who lived in Lithuania in death camps, but for this we could enjoin the benefits of capitalism
My answer: absolute bulshit. Never said anything of wha you wrote above, it is just your pure imagination. I am not a neo-nazi - something what you aren't able to understand. If I would be neo-nazi, I would just admit that and wouldn't even argue.
How could you support deportation of whole nation (Crimeans) because of some criminals? It is beyond me. Yet another prove that you are a nazi.
By calling you nazi, I don't mean that you are German nazi, but that you are Russian fascist, thinking that Russians are superior nation. Most of your posts indicates that. Your hatred on other countries like Eastern Europe or Caucassian ones, your opinion that everyone should be thankful to you (saying that EE should be thankful to USSR is the same as to say that Jews should be thankful to Hitler), your tryings to convince that everything what Russians does is right, your frequent insults and threats until Ming told you stop that.
Sarai, kas del Vokieciu tai as ju negiriu, o tik lyginu su Sovietu Sajunga, uz kuria trecias reichas tikrai buvo pranasesnis daugeliu aspektu.
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Ned
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of Aptos, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Arrian
Ned,
I'm aware that in the case of WWII Poland, it was the Brits (and French?) that made promises. I was using it as an example of promises causing expectations. I did not mean to imply that the USA broke promises to Poland.
We do make promises, however, and often claim the moral highground when (I feel) it is inappropriate to do so. In general, I think righteous rhetoric is dangerous, because it gets people's hopes up about what we're doing. Then, when we prove to be less than perfect, it's a let down.
-Arrian |
There are two problems here in making promises: first when one cannot fulfill them and second when the American people or one's allies do not support fulfilling them.
The Brits promise to the Pole prior to WWII is an example of a promise the Brits could not fulfill.
Roosevelts promise to support the Brits was an example of the latter because 76% of the American people were against getting involved in the European war - that is, until Pearl Harbor.
Another example would be Bush I's promise to the Kurds to support them in their revolt against Saddam. He couldn't do it because of our allies.
Thus, a president or prime minister should be very careful about making promised that cannot be fulfilled for one reason or another.
I agree with you Arrian.
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23-10-2002 16:14
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