 |
| |
|
|
Sonic
|
|
Vilnius, Lithuania
Dec 2001
time: 07:23
|
|
Serb, I DID NOT justified terrorists. Why you seem to understand everything quite differently from other people? I said that it isn't big surprise that Chechenyans taken those hostages, I didn't said that it is right.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Mihai
|
|
Bucharest, Romania
Jan 2000
time: 07:23
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Serb
And what is the definition of backstabbing in your understanding?
As for me everyone who joined invader’s forces in war vs. it’s own country is traitor and backstabber. |
They would had backstabed SU if they would had free express oath to SU. They didn't considered SU as their own country, but as country that conqured them.
About deportates - if you what to compare SU with USA and GB, see how many deportates died during transport and due to condition in those places.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Sonic
|
|
Vilnius, Lithuania
Dec 2001
time: 07:23
|
|
Pekka, it is quite true also in Lithuania...
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Saras
|
 |
Vilnius, Lithuania
Apr 1999
time: 06:23
|
|
Serb, major blunders:
There was no Lithuanian SS legion. Lithuanians mostly dodged the rallies and took to the woods to fight against BOTH soviet and nazi armies;
Russian people are virrtually all (except perhaps embassy staff  ) citizens with equal rights. It's preposterous to claim otherwise; Latvian policies are borderline racist, but however, most Russians there could be arguably qualified as "settlers in occupied territory"; such practices are illegal under UN resolutions. (same as Israeli settlers in Gaza and West Bank.)
There are no monuments to nazis; there are monuments to partisans who valiantly fought against all odds for the freedom of their country; if some partisans also cooperated with nazis, it's a shame, but that's life, there are idiots everywhere. That fact does not diminish the heroism of some 50 000 fighters that fought one of the longest guerilla wars in history (1940-1972). Yes, 1972. The last geezer was killed in a bitter firefight in 1972.
AFAIK there have been no removals of graves; graves are off limits, be it german or soviet. If some lone nut sprays a swastika in a jewish cemetary it's his and polices business;
Re: Lithuanians not liking Russians and being tought that in school - preposterous; most people with more than two braincells can differentiate "Soviet" from "Russian", but I have no tolerance for some of the idiots in your Duma whom I'd be happy to beat to pulp (Alksnis, for example, who is okay with Soviet tanks crushing unarmed people around Vilnius TV tower on January 13, 1991. Bastard :mad.
All in all, it is hard to be grateful to Soviet Union, a system responsible for killing every twentieth citizen of my country.
And most important of all - it is bad form to call everyone not happy about Soviets occupying free nations a nazi. Come on, you can do better.
Augi - III reichas nebuvo kapitalistinis; galiu parekomenduoti literaturos
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Wilderess
|
 |
Finland
Jul 2001
time: 07:23
|
|
Collected works of Alexander’s Horse:
quote:
Originally posted by Alexander’s Horse
Would you prefer nazis running Eastern Europe?
-----
Soviet rule was repressive but nowhere near as bad nazi rule.
-----
I'm sorry but I can't see a political system based on socialism, granted a very deeply flawed and ugly version, as being as bad as a political system like nazism and fascism that was based racism and pure hatred and murder.
----
Stalinist communism was evil but not as evil as nazism. |
I agree with all of these views, but that is not the issue here, and the question is NOT, I repeat, NOT whether I would prefer Nazis running Eastern Europe. The Nazis were already beaten when the Soviet occupation in Eastern Europe started. The question is whether I would prefer Eastern Europe being independent or under Soviet rule.
quote:
Originally posted by Alexander’s Horse
b. It stabilised Eastern Europe.
c. It pretty much ended the nationalities and borders question.
d. It ushered in a long period of peace and social and economic development, albeit a militarised peace under the Cold War threat.
-----
In their own way the Sovs tried to lift up Eastern Europe and improve the standard of living of its peoples and make it a showcase to the West.
|
Eastern Europeans were perfectly capable of taking care of themselves. Like Mihai said: their countries would now be like Switzerland or Holland, had they been able to rebuild and recover from the war as independent countries. The Soviet rule lowered the quality of life in Eastern Europe.
Nationalities questions were not ended, they were smothered, and added with a new nationality problem: Russian occupants in Eastern Europe.
AH's view on East Europeans is not very, how should I put it, appreciative.
Last edited by Wilderess on 25-10-2002 at 08:22
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Mihai
|
|
Bucharest, Romania
Jan 2000
time: 07:23
|
|
I wasn't the one who said about Switzerland or Holland, but I second that.
And AH is a well known (not by everybody it seems) troll.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Heresson
|
 |
of frogs
Jun 2000
time: 06:23
|
|
quote:
Hmmm…wait a minute, it could be only one man…that’s right!!!…. Heresson
is here
Where have you been so long? Perhaps was planning how exactly you will execute me?
|
I'm now back on my studies and I can't use internet as often as I could at home.
quote:
I will not argue about 1921. From past experience I know that it's useless.
|
Obviously; You can't fight justified Polish claims.
quote:
Was it Soviet Union? Do you remember when it was? Perhaps it was young Soviet state, perhaps it was at the same time when 'borders weren't settled'? Perhaps it was in chaos of civil war, a war between Red and White? And if you think that White government was legal government, I don’t see why the same couldn’t be said about Red.
|
Both weren't legal. Kiereñski was.
quote:
I'm aware that in the case of WWII Poland, it was the Brits (and French?) that made promises. I was using it as an example of promises causing expectations. I did not mean to imply that the USA broke promises to Poland.
|
President Roosevelt in order to get Polish votes in elections, promised us to argue with Soviets about our eastern borders and gouverment - not before the war, but during. He was having appointements with Poles and photos under a map of Poland with borders from before the war
even two years after He agreed on Soviet claims. If not Molotow's faux pas, Polish gouverment wouldn't know the truth up to the end of the war.
quote:
I've talked about current days, not about medieval period. In current days it was Polish minority which was assimilated into Lithuanian culture, not vice-versa obviously.
|
That You have got back to the previous language doesn't mean You've abandoned previous, Polish, culture
quote:
There was no Lithuanian SS legion. Lithuanians mostly dodged the rallies and took to the woods to fight against BOTH soviet and nazi armies;
|
There was. There was just one occupied nation that didn't have its own SS Legion - Poles.
|
|
| |
|
| |
|
|
|
Wilderess
|
|
Finland
Jul 2001
time: 07:23
|
|
I am now repeating myself, but the issue is worth it.
quote:
Originally posted by Alexander’s Horse
The downsides were the same as those for Soviet rule in Russia - a lack of personal freedom, a lower standard of living and slower rate of economic growth than in the West and, most of all, foreign occupation and Stalinist repression.
But it was much much better than what went before under German domination.
|
The what if -fantasy starts from the point of the Nazis being beaten. For THAT we all are thankful to the Soviet as well as to all the countries that fought against Nazis. (Finland played a selfish game here, but somehow I can’t force myself to think we should have done otherwise, considering what would have resulted from allying with Soviet Russia.)
If we now fantasize from that point on, the options to be compared are: 1) Eastern Europe starts to rebuild as independent countries, 2) Soviet occupation in Eastern Europe.
AH’s allegation that the ”lower standard of living and slower rate of economic growth than in the West and, most of all, foreign occupation and Stalinist repression” ”was much much better than what went before” is true, but was it much much better than independent Eastern Europe?
quote:
Originally posted by Alexander’s Horse
Oh no I wouldn't have wanted to live in the Eastern Bloc either
|
And yet you say the East Europeans should be grateful? The Russians have no reason to be grateful to the communist regime. The fact that the country is near a chaos now is just another reason for NOT to be grateful.
Another interesting what if –thread would be what if Lenin had not won the revolution in Russia? What would that giant be like, would there still be a czar and serfs, or would there be a president in a democratic country – or a democratic monarchy with a czar without any power, just an icon like the Brits and the Swedes have?
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Mihai
|
|
Bucharest, Romania
Jan 2000
time: 07:23
|
|
Soviet Union didn't fight the nazis to eliberate East Europe, but because Germany attacked it.
For example, romanians are thankful to France for her suport in 1859 when Wallachia and Moldavia united. France may had her own interest in that, but the result was only good for us.
If Nazi Germany won, it could be worst, but I cannot see why I had to be thankful to that dog who bite me after he chased away the wolf.
|
|
| |
All times are GMT. The time now is 05:23.
Apolyton Time is 00:23. |
top of page
|
| archivepost |
|
Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
|
HTML code is ON
vB code is ON
Smilies are ON
[IMG] code is ON
|
|
|
|
|
|
24-10-2002 13:34
.
|