23-10-2002 05:39									#241
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I just love all their BS excuses for speeding, which is just basically selfishness and stupidity and taking no thought for the welfare of other road users.

I'm with the cops on this one because speeding only means one thing - needless deaths of innocent people because of a few selfish ignorant bastards, including many on this very thread.

	23-10-2002 05:55									#242
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Man, I swear, the only thing more preachy than a Pastor is a cop. Save your finger waggin' for your kids. I don't need a fatherly lecture thank you. In fact, on my way to hansville tonight, I think I'll break the speedlimit by..... 10 whole miles per hour, just for you.

	23-10-2002 05:58									#243
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quote: Originally posted by 1 I Accelerated to pass the dewd, so its not like I was going the constant 97, or whatever the officer claimed. (my speedometer only goes to 85 mind you, so I doubt the validity of his accusations)

He goes 97 and thinks there is any sort of justification for not getting a $300 ticket. What a moron?

	23-10-2002 05:59									#244
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He was just pissed off and venting. I am sure it was his first ticket. He'll figure it out, I am sure.

	23-10-2002 06:22									#245
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Che, you obviously didn't read my posts if u think I normally go that fast. I'll ignore the moron comment, citing hypocrisy.

	23-10-2002 06:35									#246
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The irony of speed limits is that they were actually higher 30 years ago, before ABS, airbags, seat belt laws, crumple zones, etc, etc... cars are much safer now than they ever were. And yet, roads that were built in the 60s based on a then-70 mph limit are now a 100km (62mph) zone here.

Bottom line is, people never drive the limit on highways because the limit makes no sense. And if you do happen to be going 100 when everyone else is doing 120, you're the hazard.

Like almost everything else, speed is situational. I've never been ticketed for speeding anywhere but in residential/high traffic areas. And those, I can understand.

	23-10-2002 06:48									#247
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quote: Originally posted by NeOmega In fact, on my way to hansville tonight, I think I'll break the speedlimit by..... 10 whole miles per hour, just for you.

Fine well when you do, think about this arsehole.

When my brother Anthony was 5 and in kindergarten he had a friend named Monica Rumble also 5. We used to catch the bus home from school to the T intersection at the top of the neighbouring street. Monica would get off at the same stop, along with a lot of other school kids. I was friends with Monica's older brother and our parents were close friends (and still are - really nice people).

On this particular day I had football training so I wasn't there. But when I got home there was chaos - Anthony and Monica had been hit by a car We didn't know if they were alive or dead, my Mom was in a hysterical state, my Dad was rushing home from work. All we knew was they had been taken to hospital by ambulance and it was "bad".

It turned out that when the children got off the bus, Anthony and Monica had got separated from the older children somehow. Just as they were crossing the road, holding hands as they had been taught, a local guy in a mini-moke came along and hit both of them. This guy delivered the papers from the back of the open moke, throwing the papers out as he drove and was well known for driving around the area too fast.

Monica took the full force of the collision and was thrown about a 100 yards like a rag doll. My brother Anthony somehow missed the full impact and only took a glancing blow from the car's bumper. He was thrown clear but he came within an inch of death. He landed on the grass, she landed on the road. It could have been either of them or both killed.

Monica died that night in hospital. Her brother slept with me in my bed that night. He cried a lot and we talked about it but we really couldn't take it in being only 8 and 10 ourselves.

Now the local speed limit was 30 mph. The police and witnesses estimated this guy was doing somewhere between 30 and 40 mph, perhaps a little more or less. But in that situation, the difference between 30 and 40 is the difference between stopping in time and not, whether the force of the collision kills or just maims, in other words life or death for a couple of innocent little kindergarten kids. Maybe she would have still been killed if he was driving more slowly but at the speed he was going she never stood a chance

So live it up jerks, exceed the speed limit, get your cheap thrills, don't worry about others.

I'll never forget the little white coffin, the wailing, the grief and anguish, which went on for years and years, the way it knawed away at that family, affected their marriage, the guilt and shame affecting a whole lot of other kids who got off the bus that day with Monica, the recriminations and anger. The pointless court case. It would never bring her back.

I knew this little girl damn it, and she was lovely. Everybody loved her. Why did she die and my brother live? Every time that family see my brother they remember. To this day my brother feels a sort of guilt about it too - for surviving. Its a heavy burden for a 5 year old and other little kids to see a friend die like that. Children shouldn't have to see that. And for what? for nothing but stupidity and all the BS excuses of a speeder.

To this day the family keep her room just as it was the day she died. They forgave everyone including the guy who killed her. Was it worthwhile for this jerk to take a child's life just so he could get to where he was going a couple of minutes faster? He left the area shortly after - he couldn't stand the shame and the way people looked at him. I don't know what happened to him - it probably wasn't good. He has to live with what he did for the rest of his life.

Monica would be 36 today. My brother Anthony is 36 and married with 4 beautiful children.

So please, don't speed.

	23-10-2002 06:54									#248
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I don't think anyone in this thread even hinted about speeding in residential areas, especially when kids are around.

In fact I assumed everyone was talking about major roads, freeways and highways and the like.

That is a sad story though, and that's why I never speed in residential areas -- kids run out infront of you chasing a ball or whatnot and you need to be able to stop on a dime.

	23-10-2002 07:06									#249
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Yep Asher, there's always an out

But I can think of many situations on the highway where being over speed is the difference between life and death.

But why bother listing some? Its like talking to brick walls

	23-10-2002 07:13									#250
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AH,

That's a terrible thing to have experienced. I'm sorry.

	23-10-2002 07:22									#251
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quote: Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man AH, That's a terrible thing to have experienced. I'm sorry.

Thanks I'm okay - but strange how it brings the memories flooding back. I can still see her face, hear her voice. She had a lisp. She was the baby of the family. They didn't have any more children after that.

Her brother David was really cut up by her death because he had been mean to her before she died, just normal childish teasing, and he couldn't make it up to her, say sorry. That's how kids look at these things. He was really upset about all the mean things he ever did to her, really tortured himself about it - and he was only about 10.

People were angry with the guy who did it, but we also felt really sorry for him too. What a waste the whole thing was.

I speed too sometimes so I'm no saint.

	23-10-2002 07:53									#252
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quote: Originally posted by NeOmega He was passing a truck. American law allows for up to 10 mph anyway to do this task, so realistically he was going like 22 mph too fast.

And in what state is that the case... none that I know of.

Passing another vehicle gives you no more right to speed than if the other vehicle wasn't there.

Stop making crap up to help justify an already lame defense for breaking the law.

	23-10-2002 08:21									#253
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quote: As David Floyd and other libertarians have mentioned, a state can pass any law so long as it does not conflict with the Constitution. Nothing in the constitution prohibits speed limits.

I think I'd better respond to this one.

Yes, the state of Texas may legally pass any law it likes that does not conflict with the Constitution (or the Texas Constitution). That does not mean that it should.

Further, conflicting with the Constitution also means conflicting with the 9th Amendment, and according to the 14th Amendment states can't violate a person's Constitutional rights in the same way the federal government can't (this ignores the good argument that the 14th was never properly ratified, and thus doesn't exist, but that argument is irrelevant here, and in any case, it damn well SHOULD exist). And the 9th Amendment pretty much protects any right not specifically mentions.

In terms of traffic laws such as speed limits, it comes down to whether speed limits violate your rights. For me, the jury's still out on that one - I certainly want speed limits (reasonable ones) but what I selfishly want doesn't necessarily mean that is what should happen, and there are good arguments that just because roads are state property doesn't mean they can restrict your speed, any more than they can restrict what you're wearing, eating, or carrying.

So, I'm not really sure what my opinion is on speed limits. I like them, in a sense, as there are too many idiots out there, but if it's adequately shown that they are a violation of individual rights, I won't support them.

	23-10-2002 08:26									#254
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd So, I'm not really sure what my opinion is on speed limits. I like them, in a sense, as there are too many idiots out there, but if it's adequately shown that they are a violation of individual rights, I won't support them.

Basically, you want anarchy?

Human rights over the common good?

	23-10-2002 08:32									#255
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse I speed too sometimes so I'm no saint.

No, but apparently you are a judgmental hypocrite.

	23-10-2002 08:32									#256
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quote: Basically, you want anarchy?

No.

quote: Human rights over the common good?

The "common good" is really nothing more than a bunch of different individual rights. The only "common good" you're going to find is guaranteeing people the right to do as they please, as long as they don't hurt anyone else.

	23-10-2002 08:34									#257
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd In terms of traffic laws such as speed limits, it comes down to whether speed limits violate your rights.

Forget about rights. What about your responsibility to other road users to drive safely and obey the road rules?

Ask any traffic cop - most people are nothing like as able drivers as they think they are and have no idea what to do in an emergency.

The road rules are there to protect people and make sure everyone gets to their destination safely.

Here, driving a car is now seen more as a privilege with responsibilities than a right.

	23-10-2002 08:36									#258
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd and there are good arguments that just because roads are state property doesn't mean they can restrict your speed, any more than they can restrict what you're wearing, eating, or carrying.

Out of curiosity, do you think it's a violation of individual rights for a state government building to x-ray and search the bags and possessions of individuals entering them?

Is it a violation of rights to require a driver's license in order to operate a motor vehicle?

	23-10-2002 08:40									#259
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quote: Forget about rights. What about your responsibility to other road users to drive safely and obey the road rules?

What about it? If I hurt someone maliciously, I should be prosecuted. If I hurt someone negligently, I should at least have my license suspended.

quote: Here, driving a car is now seen more as a privilege with responsibilities than a right.

Well, when a nation and a government only recognizes individual rights when it suits their purposes, it's very easy for them to view some things as "privileges".

Boris,

quote: Out of curiosity, do you think it's a violation of individual rights for a state government building to x-ray and search the bags and possessions of individuals entering them?

Oh, I'd say probably so.

	23-10-2002 08:40									#260
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov No, but apparently you are a judgmental hypocrite.

Probably

Hey Boris, welcome to the human race

I hope one day you're man enough to admit you did wrong and your words and actions aren't always consistent.

Past imperfect? *shrug*

*blows Boris a big wet kiss*

	23-10-2002 08:42									#261
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quote: Is it a violation of rights to require a driver's license in order to operate a motor vehicle?

Yes, if a license is required to operate a vehicle on private property (including private roads). But I'm with tandeetaylor in that roads should be privately owned, and as such any restrictions should be up to the owner, so that's about as far as we're gonna get in this discussion.

I rather liked her statement about asking me what kind of national dress code I'd support

	23-10-2002 08:43									#262
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Yep Asher, there's always an out But I can think of many situations on the highway where being over speed is the difference between life and death.

Don't be so silly, Horse.

If you truly followed your logic to the letter we'd be using tricycles on the highways.

	23-10-2002 08:45									#263
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quote: Originally posted by Asher If you truly followed your logic to the letter we'd be using tricycles on the highways.

Er how does driving within the speed limit lead to tricycles? Sorry Asher, the ad absurdem argument never works

But I would like to see you one day on the highway on a tricycle. Oh yes, that would be good

	23-10-2002 08:45									#264
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quote: If you truly followed your logic to the letter we'd be using tricycles on the highways.

Yeah, but not too fast, because what if someone hit someone else and caused them to skin their elbow on the pavement?

	23-10-2002 08:46									#265
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Well, when a nation and a government only recognizes individual rights when it suits their purposes, it's very easy for them to view some things as "privileges".

But there is a also a limit to individual rights, and there are indeed community rights. This is pretty fundamental to the law. The individual's rights, while vitally important to American law, are not the only things to be considered. What is deemed the common good is also important.

quote: Oh, I'd say probably so.

So, a state courthouse shouldn't be able to search people entering? Or any government building?

What about airports?

	23-10-2002 08:53									#266
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Well, when a nation and a government only recognizes individual rights when it suits their purposes, it's very easy for them to view some things as "privileges".

Who is "them"? You mean the community? Oh yeah, we tend to think the rights of the majority take precedence over the rights of individuals and that indivuals have both rights within the community and responsibilities to it. One outcome of all that is speed limits and road rules.

We call it democracy. Its an interesting concept - you should look it up some time

	23-10-2002 08:55									#267
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Er how does driving within the speed limit lead to tricycles? Sorry Asher, the ad absurdem argument never works But I would like to see you one day on the highway on a tricycle. Oh yes, that would be good

You're talking about how speed can kill. Basically you're either intentionally confusing the two or you really don't know the difference between a posted speedlimit and what's actually safe for travel.

The speed limits are posted there because most people can't figure out how fast they should truly be going, so they set it to something low and safer. In my area especially, city streets have ridiculously low speed limits because they're the same in winter and summer. Obviously you should go A LOT slower in winter, but they don't change the signs.

It's safer to go faster on those big 8-10 lane roads in summer at a higher speed than the speed limit, in fact the limits here on main roads seem to be about 70km/h on an 8-10 lane road that has no traffic lights and drives in a straight line. Is it like that in Australia?

There's room for discretion for speed. You keep equating speeding to driving dangerously, when sometimes it's driving what's acceptable. 90km/h on an 8/10-lane straight-road with no traffic lights seems acceptable to me, especially when everyone else does it. Yes, it is speeding. And if I got pulled over I wouldn't cry about it, but I also wouldn't go into a teary story about how a 5 year old kid died in a residential area because of speeders. That's a different ballgame.

	23-10-2002 08:57									#268
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quote: But there is a also a limit to individual rights,

Yes, and that limit is that they can't infringe upon the rights of another.

quote: and there are indeed community rights.

I disagree.

quote: This is pretty fundamental to the law. The individual's rights, while vitally important to American law, are not the only things to be considered. What is deemed the common good is also important.

Then the law is flawed.

quote: So, a state courthouse shouldn't be able to search people entering? Or any government building? What about airports?

Why should a government official ever be able to search you, unless you break some law warranting arrest, or if there is a valid warrant involved?

	23-10-2002 08:59									#269
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quote: We call it democracy. Its an interesting concept - you should look it up some time

"Democracy is two foxes and a chicken voting on dinner."

I rather like that quote

	23-10-2002 09:03									#270
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People just love to speed don't they? They'd say anything to justify it.