22-10-2002 03:49									#31
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin OFITG - Making sure they aren't pedophiles, for example. Basically making sure they are bona fide - and not becoming preists for the wrong reasons.

How can they make sure of that? Who can tell what the person is really like. Perhaps they should let them marry in todays world.

I mean who knows what were they doing in the dark ages, hey the ages were dark and noone knew , but now, this would allow them to be pretty much normal people without the celibacy requirement, and would surely cut down on the paedophile problem.

	22-10-2002 05:01									#32
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Plan Austral Other children without having sex?

Obviously she had sex. It's just that she remained a virgin. It's faith, not logic.

	22-10-2002 05:16									#33
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Ned Are you sure about the Catholic doctrine? Jesus appears to have had several brothers and a number of sisters. I thought even this was in the New Testament? But it now looks like archeology has verified Josephus. If Catholic doctrine denies that James is Jesus' brother, they may have to do some re-evaluation.

"Brother" is in the new testament but it is interpreted as "cousin" in the mainstream theology. Apparently cousins and other close relatives were also called brother and sister.

	22-10-2002 05:37									#34
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Interesting stuff, thanks for bringing it to our attention Che!

	22-10-2002 05:47									#35
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Are there more details about what the text actually says?

	22-10-2002 05:56									#36
	Got spare money?

quote: The inscription, in the Aramaic language, appears on an empty ossuary, or limestone burial box for bones. It reads: "James, son of Joseph, brother of Jesus." Lemaire dates the object to 63 A.D.

	22-10-2002 06:00									#37
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Thats it? I guess its the bones everyone is excited about then.

	22-10-2002 06:09									#38
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

No, it's the inscription. The thought is that unless the brother was someone important, he wouldn't have been mentioned at all. It's not proof positive, but it is highly unsual.

However, just because the man existed it doesn't mean he's a god.

	22-10-2002 06:10									#39
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

He wasnt a God, he was a creator son. The creator of this planet.

	22-10-2002 06:22									#40
	Got spare money?

Wait! At least two relics of St James the Lesser are preserved in Westphalia Missouri!

http://www.pearlofosagecounty.org/church/relics.htm#J

Just how complete are these bones? It's just it could be embarrassing if there's an excess of fingers, or something.

	22-10-2002 06:34									#41
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara However, just because the man existed it doesn't mean he's a god.

Oh I don't know - take me for example............

	22-10-2002 06:46									#42
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Jesus had tons of fanatical supporters who created the cult, now mainstream religion, of Christianity. The man was great. He didn't want a religion, he wanted to spread good morals. Unfortunately, his sick twisted followers spread this religion of evil across half the globe. It then helped spawn the other mainstream religion of evil that is Islam (which literally means 'submission').

I have problems with both of these religions as I'm sure you all know.

Christianity - claims to gives answers to questions that God (or whoever) never meant to be answered on this Earth. Has been responsible for more death and war than any other religion, philosophy, or ideology in the history of human kind.

Islam - pushes the idea of being submissive and impressionable onto its followers.... traditionally, the old Muslim world was quite the opposite, but with its own crusades and those of Christianity against it, Islam has been twisted into a doctrine of submission and hate... and I'm not just talking about the terrorists... mainstream Islam preaches these immoral concepts of submission, conformity, and assimilation; just as Christianity and American society does.

[/end threadjack]

anyways, its not surprising to find this evidence. IMO Jesus did exist... although... he did not walk on water, he was not the actual son of a deity (at least no more so than any other human being or living organism), he did not turn water in to wine and all that other bullsh*t. I am very anxious to hear more about the truth about Jesus's existence. It will only shed light on the lies and false truths that the religion of Christianity has spread throughout the world.

I'm sure this will probably offend people. It offends me to, the evils that have been committed throughout history, and today; in the name of a God; who if exists, probably would have commit suicide at the sight of what his creations have done in his name.

	22-10-2002 07:22									#43
	Re: Physical evidence of Jesus found? Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Kyle McCarter, a Johns Hopkins University archaeologist, told a news conference that "We may never be absolutely certain. In the work I do we're rarely absolutely certain about anything," he said.

I always find it amusing that the experts rightly express humility and uncertainty but then we always get a bunch of Bozos come into threads like this and express their mindless, uneducated, bigoted, uninformed and ignorant opinions on God, Christianity, Jesus, whatever, as absolute and obvious certainties

	22-10-2002 07:29									#44
	Re: Re: Physical evidence of Jesus found? Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse I always find it amusing that the experts rightly express humility and uncertainty but then we always get a bunch of Bozos come into threads like this and express their mindless, uneducated, bigoted, uninformed and ignorant opinions on God, Christianity, Jesus, whatever, as absolute and obvious certainties

Sava's post being a perfect example of this.

If theres one saying that comes to mind when I read his posts, its this : "I'm not young enough to know everything"

	22-10-2002 08:54									#45
	Full PM-box? Change here!

The data is still very preliminary, there are still lots of questions. The Shroud of Turin has been proven to be a forgery, so there remains a possibilty that, this too is one.


Ned,

The lone passage in Josephus' Antiquities can very well be a late insertion by some Christian.

	22-10-2002 09:31									#46
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Oh and this isn't a confirmation of Josephus since the guy with the inscription can't tell exactly what years its from from the physical evidence (the handwriting puts it mid-1st century) and the only reason he picked the exact date is to make it match with Josephus.

	22-10-2002 09:57									#47
	Inflate your Upload Space

I like the question "Where has it been for all these 19 centuries?"

	22-10-2002 10:08									#48
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse "Brother" is in the new testament but it is interpreted as "cousin" in the mainstream theology. Apparently cousins and other close relatives were also called brother and sister.

There's also a view that Mary was the second wife and that Jesus brothers and sisters were older step-brothers and step-sisters.

It's really a minor point, because there's no conclusive historical record that has been discovered.

What is interesting is the date (consistent with Josephus' account of James) and the fact that the Jesus mentioned (if it's the same one, which is reasonably probably) had such a degree of fame by that time (years in advance of the dictation of the New Testament books of the apostles.

Boshko - not "the only" reason. The handwriting puts it mid-first century, the particular burial practice ended in 70 AD, so that gives you a pretty constrained time range, and then you have a pre-existing contemporaneous account that matches the set of names. If if it was off a few years, that's not very significant, because you're still talking about a very specific time frame.

UR - the antiquity of the box has been confirmed by non-destructive examination, and not that many people know Aramaic (let alone find a blank box of the right age to make an after the fact inscription.) The shroud of Turin was an old forgery using primitive techniques, done in an era when credulity was high and so was the market price for apparent relics. Debunking the shroud as a forgery wasn't that difficult with modern technology.

Sava - to offend people, you'd have to be taken seriously.

	22-10-2002 10:10									#49
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger I like the question "Where has it been for all these 19 centuries?"

Probably a spittoon or a feed trough for the goats

	22-10-2002 10:11									#50
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: If if it was off a few years, that's not very significant, because you're still talking about a very specific time frame.

Right, was just responding to a point raised earlier that it doesn't specifically confirm Josephus since Josephus is the only reason they're pinning it down at all and not just saying "mid first century before 70 AD."

	22-10-2002 10:21									#51
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

That's common in archaeology. If you find a piece that you can date to the first half of the 14th Century in England, and something on it is consistent with an account that relates to the beginning years of Edward II's reign, you date it around 1307 AD. It's the best fit of all the evidence. Doesn't make it absolute, but it fits with the information you have available.

"Confirm" is a very strong word in archaeology. "Is consistent with" is much more on point.

It's still a tremendous find.

	22-10-2002 10:25									#52
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Probably not explaining myself well, I'm not saying that 63 AD isn't the best guess out there, just that this doesn't do anything at all to confirm Josephus' account of the death of James aside from providing evidence that James did, in fact, exist.

Very interesting find, if it holds up it will probably smack the Jesus mythers back into the fringes of scholarship from which they were just starting to emerge, almost a shame they have some interesting ideas

	22-10-2002 14:36									#53
	Got spare money?

quote: MtG: Sava - to offend people, you'd have to be taken seriously.

I take Sava seriously!
I'm so happy that I finally found someone who knows everything about Jesus and about God! I'm so happy that Sava actually knows what God wants us to know, and how he wants us to live and all that!

Tell us more about it Sava, you seem to be so correct about God and about Jesus! It's really awesome!

Tell me more tell me more!

	22-10-2002 15:58									#54
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Yes Robert, what about your own opinions on evolution?

Anyway, an artifact like that is extremely hard if not impossible to date. Since it was found in any sort of dig site, there is no external dating. Neither C-14 nor uranium radiometric dating works.

I would like to know how they dated this thing.

	22-10-2002 16:13									#55
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

"The shroud of Turin was an old forgery using primitive techniques"

Haven't followed this for a while. So how exactly did they get the image on (or rather into?) the shroud ?

	22-10-2002 16:15									#56
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Urban Ranger: Yes Robert, what about your own opinions on evolution?

I have a strong opinion indeed, and I know you do have one as well. I would never blame you for having a strong opinion.

Some people think that the "Tolerant Opinion" is the only acceptable one. But a "tolerant opinion" is just an opinion as an "intolerant opinion", in fact a "tolerant opinion" is oftenly not tolerant with an intolerant opinion, which makes a "tolerant opinion" another intolerant opinion. In fact a tolerant opinion is only tolerant against other tolerant opinions. Conclusion, tolerant opinions only accept opinions that are alike.

you get it

	22-10-2002 16:21									#57
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Have you confused yourself yet?

	22-10-2002 16:52									#58
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Urban Ranger: Have you confused yourself yet?

Does that mean that I confused you?
That means I'm smarter than you are
Which results of course in the factual and proven conclusion that I must be right and you must be wrong

	22-10-2002 16:57									#59
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Roland "The shroud of Turin was an old forgery using primitive techniques" Haven't followed this for a while. So how exactly did they get the image on (or rather into?) the shroud ?

Theory is they crucified some bloke, stuck a a sword through his side and wrapped him in a shroud in the exact manner that Jesus reportedly died.

The only thing that makes the shroud a fake is its age per radiocarbon dating .IIRC.

	22-10-2002 17:06									#60
	Got spare money?

This is interesting:

http://dsc.discovery.com/news/brief...819/shroud.html

quote: There seems to be ample evidence that an anomalous area was sampled for the radiocarbon analysis. The reported age is almost certainly invalid for the date the cloth was produced," he writes in a scientific review of the methods applied to the Shroud.