23-10-2002 05:04									#121
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James= Jesus brother. But not mary's son. James was from another Joseph's other marraige I believe.

Owell what does it mean? Nothing anyway. I dont think anybody doubted he ever existed in the first place. Whats questionable was he the son of god?

	23-10-2002 05:04									#122
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I've had that tried on me on numerous occassions Chowlett and it is so transparent. In that sense, Christianity seems to be like one big pyramid scheme. The Christian babbles on about how atheists are cruel about their beliefs, but how many door to door atheists do you see in real life, or trying to thrust their beliefs down their throat. Online is a special context.

After a year, my Christian friend gave up...no salvation for me

	23-10-2002 05:07									#123
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The issue of ignorance is a thorny one, and I admit to not knowing the answer. But the problem with your line is that it's just not true. You don't become saved through good deeds, because you'll never be perfect. You become saved by accepting that Jesus died in your place for that imperfection, and you must be truly sorry for your shortcomings. Your causality is reversed - you don't do good deeds to become saved, you do good deeds because you feel love for your Saviour.

	23-10-2002 05:08									#124
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quote: Originally posted by monkspider Wanna be another member of the Christian Commie team Che?

Nope. As I wrote. The fact that the man in all likelihood existed doesn't mean he was a God.

	23-10-2002 05:08									#125
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Lauren, if James was not Mary's son, he wasn't Jesus' brother...

PH - nice self-contradiction there. Your friend gave up, yes? So he's no longer "shoving his morality down your throat", then?

	23-10-2002 05:09									#126
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat It's still a tremendous find.

Thanks Mike - I was very happy with the paint job and it wasn't hard to scuff up the box. Finding a suitable tomb to leave it in took a bit of time though.

Amazing how cheap it is to buy off carbon daters.

	23-10-2002 05:11									#127
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The way I have always viewed this issue is that Christianity is God's special revelation to the world. However, a non-christian can still be saved by god's general revelation, ie the set of morals that all humans seem to have (for example, it's wrong to torture babies for fun). So if someone is kind, compassionate, charitable, etc, they are likely to make it into heaven. Conversely, if a Christian fails to show these traits, they shouldnt' assume they will be saved simply on account of their Christian beliefs.

While nihlists and some of the more conservative elements of christianity are likely to disagree with me, I feel that my beliefs are probably the most reasonable explanation of how things will work in the after-life.

	23-10-2002 05:12									#128
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quote: Is Gandhi now in hell because he wasn't christian? I doubt it. You can die in complete ignorance of christianity and still be christian if you display the virtuous qualities of compassion etc.

Although I doubt Gandhi's years of study in London would have left him in complete ignorance of Christianity.

	23-10-2002 05:13									#129
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Also, on that note, I think Christians will be held to higher standards since they were able to hear God's special revelation.

	23-10-2002 05:15									#130
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quote: Originally posted by Chowlett Lauren, if James was not Mary's son, he wasn't Jesus' brother...

He could be a half-brother, but I thought James was a younger brother, and Mary was still around at Jeshua's death according to the texts, so it's unlikely James would be a half-brother.

	23-10-2002 05:17									#131
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara He could be a half-brother, but I thought James was a younger brother, and Mary was still around at Jeshua's death according to the texts, so it's unlikely James would be a half-brother.

If God is Jesus's father, and Mary was his mother, then if Mary wasn't James's mother, how could James be his brother without being divinely born himself?

	23-10-2002 05:18									#132
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quote: Originally posted by Chowlett The issue of ignorance is a thorny one, and I admit to not knowing the answer. But the problem with your line is that it's just not true. You don't become saved through good deeds, because you'll never be perfect. You become saved by accepting that Jesus died in your place for that imperfection, and you must be truly sorry for your shortcomings. Your causality is reversed - you don't do good deeds to become saved, you do good deeds because you feel love for your Saviour.

Yes, very interesting viewpoint. As long as you are killing those pesky heathens and infidels in the name of God, it doesn't matter. It's such a pathetic cop out. As long as you are under the churches whip, putting in the collection box, you're fine

...and no self contradiction. She was just an example, and she kind of backed off in the end when she realised she just wasn't making any progress. But there is still that irritation of how sanctimonious Christians are and their false feelings of superiority. Oh what a shock they will get (or won't get, as it should be )

	23-10-2002 05:18									#133
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Che - note two things.

a) What is my belief?
b) Who, therefore, do I assume is Jesus' father?

	23-10-2002 05:19									#134
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Che, you're an amazing guy. I'm not kidding. Not one bit.
I give you static, but hey, that's just me.

	23-10-2002 05:20									#135
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"Lauren, if James was not Mary's son, he wasn't Jesus' brother..."

half brother or step brother. Generally are refferred to as brothers

	23-10-2002 05:21									#136
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See post just above.

PH - tomorrow, ok? If i have time. Now is bed.

	23-10-2002 05:30									#137
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand Lincoln, does the prospect of an Atheist burning in Hell bother you? Am I bad because it doesn't bother me? *snip*

It depends on who the atheist is. If it was PH burning I might try and fetch him a glass of water . For others I might be looking for some gasoline.

But seriously I can't stand to see anyone suffer and nothing angers me more than people who intentionally inflict suffering on others who have done them no harm. I suppose there is a certain amount of justice when those who delight in torturing others receive the same. For that catagory of people I have no sympathy -- but for even them there is hope if they repent. If they refuse even that grace then I am afraid I will have no tears for them.

	23-10-2002 05:34									#138
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Oh well, it's not like I hope they burn or anything.
I figure Heaven to have plenty of elbow room.

	23-10-2002 05:45									#139
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quote: Originally posted by Chowlett The issue of ignorance is a thorny one, and I admit to not knowing the answer. But the problem with your line is that it's just not true. You don't become saved through good deeds, because you'll never be perfect. You become saved by accepting that Jesus died in your place for that imperfection, and you must be truly sorry for your shortcomings. Your causality is reversed - you don't do good deeds to become saved, you do good deeds because you feel love for your Saviour.

That's the view espoused by the likes of Augustine and Aquinas, but the catholic church (or other christian churches AFAIK) have never stated that as a tenet.

It is interesting to note that the early church believed that anyone who followed "reason" or the logos are Christians even if they didn't know about Jesus. This idea was also resurrected (no pun intended) by Martin Luther.

	23-10-2002 05:45									#140
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov If God is Jesus's father, and Mary was his mother, then if Mary wasn't James's mother, how could James be his brother without being divinely born himself?

Right. How did I miss something that obvious?

	23-10-2002 06:48									#141
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quote: Originally posted by monkspider The way I have always viewed this issue is that Christianity is God's special revelation to the world. However, a non-christian can still be saved by god's general revelation, ie the set of morals that all humans seem to have (for example, it's wrong to torture babies for fun). So if someone is kind, compassionate, charitable, etc, they are likely to make it into heaven. Conversely, if a Christian fails to show these traits, they shouldnt' assume they will be saved simply on account of their Christian beliefs.

I agree, or at least think I do

I think that everybody has a chance to be saved

what about all the people in china in 100AD? (I won't go into before Christ even though I could)

I think that there are choices that they could have made for God

and we don't know who will be in heaven, that is for God who judges the heart (because while good works do usually show what is going on in the heart, they do not always)

Jon Miller

	23-10-2002 09:28									#142
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quote: Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin Theory is they crucified some bloke, stuck a a sword through his side and wrapped him in a shroud in the exact manner that Jesus reportedly died. The only thing that makes the shroud a fake is its age per radiocarbon dating .IIRC.

There's another thing.

If you put paint on somebody's face and wrap a long piece of cloth around his head, then unwind the cloth and lay it out flat, it wouldn't look like a face at all.

That is really the biggest strike against it.

	23-10-2002 09:34									#143
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quote: Originally posted by Boshko Except the handwriting is characteristic for mid first-century aramaic and that form of burial ended in 70 AD so there's a relatively narrow window.

Handwriting? I saw some footage and what was on the stone thingie - whatever you call it - didn't look like handwriting at all. It looked like inscriptions - carved in stone.

For one thing, I would seriously doubt that any kind of writing on a piece of rock will survive the test of time, as it were.

Even if it is handwriting, how can we tell it is not a forgery? Even Hitler's own handwriting can be forged.

	23-10-2002 09:38									#144
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They can test the patina, or the crust, that builds up on rocks exposed to air and weather over time. If it passes that test, the can determine how old (roughly) the box and writing are.

	23-10-2002 09:47									#145
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Hm, that's not going to be accurate to any degree of precision they wanted. For one thing, this buildup is very environmentally dependent. Since the stone box didn't come out of an archaeological site, there is no way anybody can tell what conditions had it been subjected to. For example, if the box had been in constant use, you wouldn't be able to find much of a crust.

Don't get me wrong, this will be a very significant find if it can be shown to be authentic, which is something very difficult.

	23-10-2002 09:47									#146
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you are hilarious urban

if it was any other archeological find, you would not be doubting it's authenticity this much

they will do the normal tests, I am sure

Jon Miller

	23-10-2002 09:50									#147
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The Bible does seem to support Jesus having siblings:

http://www.execulink.com/~wblank/maryoth.htm

Nothing in the Bible states that Mary died a virgin, does it?

	23-10-2002 11:18									#148
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Che, Have you ever noticed how communist-like Jesus was? The "meek" shall inherit the Earth, etc.

	23-10-2002 11:22									#149
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I did notice it, yes. That's why it was rather easy for me to transition from one to the other.

	23-10-2002 11:37									#150
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According to the gospels, Jesus and his apostles lived in a commune.