22-10-2002 18:53									#61
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Hmmmm...this thread appears to be turning into another creation/evolution debate.

Nothing unusual about that of course...

	22-10-2002 18:56									#62
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I knew before I even came here the Sava's and others like him would be blustering about this.

Funny how some call for proof, then discount any proof supplied.
Burn baby burn.

	22-10-2002 19:17									#63
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quote: Hmmmm...this thread appears to be turning into another creation/evolution debate.

Can't find any creation / evolution argumentation in there (except for the Sava troll of course)

	22-10-2002 19:21									#64
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Sava is the embodiment of "troll".
Watch out, Horsey. You have major competition.

	22-10-2002 19:33									#65
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand Sava is the embodiment of "troll". Watch out, Horsey. You have major competition.

Nah

	22-10-2002 19:46									#66
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand Sava is the embodiment of "troll". Watch out, Horsey. You have major competition.

No chance. The only competition Horsey ever had was Civie.

	22-10-2002 19:49									#67
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The thing is that I now and than almost am tricked into giving a serious response to Sava.

But when I see the name AH next to a post, I never have that, but only have the smile and

AH is absolutely the troll master!
He can't be token seriously, not even if he wants to!
And indeed, Civie might come close!
Nobody will ever take him serious.

	22-10-2002 19:54									#68
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The best trolls are the ones who say things that can be taken in more than one way. Then the troll can chop and change more easily.

They also have to protect their reputation - not be seen as a "one trick pony".

	22-10-2002 19:57									#69
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Quick questions about the original topic: how common were the names "James" and Jesus in that region during that time-period? How come there are no contemporary Roman archives about the man? Nor any Hebrew for that matter?

	22-10-2002 20:04									#70
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According to the article I read, fairly common; but only about 20 Jameses in Jerusalem during that era with a brother named Jesus and father named Joseph.
Referencing a brother named Jesus, and a father named Joseph, was more than rare.
That seems to be what makes it valid.

	22-10-2002 20:38									#71
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quote: How come there are no contemporary Roman archives about the man? Nor any Hebrew for that matter?

No roman archives because Israel wasn't important to the Romans. One of their border provences

And that there are no archives in the jewish history is logic, because Jesus wasn't particulairy friends with the religious leaders.

	22-10-2002 20:55									#72
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I was reading in another article that there are three Roman historians from the early second century that mention Jesus. I half recall that Tacitus mentioned him.

That's four from non Christian sources. Now we have the tomb of James.

	22-10-2002 21:03									#73
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And again, how many grave stones, tombs, whatever have you seen that reference family members by name?
I've seen none, but they might exist, I guess.
Usually it's like "Beloved Brother and Son".

So for James to call out Joseph and Jesus by name, well ...

	22-10-2002 21:06									#74
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quote: I was reading in another article that there are three Roman historians from the early second century that mention Jesus. I half recall that Tacitus mentioned him. That's four from non Christian sources. Now we have the tomb of James.

Like you say, early second century. By then Christianity had well taken off so there are bound to be mentions of Jesus by then. And what makes you assume that the James of forementioned tomb is THE James, brother of THE Jesus? Like Sloww said, there were about 20 Jameses that fit the bill.

	22-10-2002 21:16									#75
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand And again, how many grave stones, tombs, whatever have you seen that reference family members by name? I've seen none, but they might exist, I guess. Usually it's like "Beloved Brother and Son". So for James to call out Joseph and Jesus by name, well ...

It wasn't written on or in the tomb but on a box placed inside the tomb. If at all, since, according to the first post in this thread, the box wasn't discovered in a tomb at all.

	22-10-2002 21:19									#76
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Ok. How many coffins have you seen that way, Mr. Particular?

	22-10-2002 21:19									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Hueij Like Sloww said, there were about 20 Jameses that fit the bill.

quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara The thought is that unless the brother was someone important, he wouldn't have been mentioned at all. It's not proof positive, but it is highly unsual.

	22-10-2002 21:28									#78
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand Ok. How many coffins have you seen that way, Mr. Particular?

Mentioning of family members on Late-Egyptian coffins is fairly regular. Never saw them "live" but I've seen photo's

DD, once again, if Jesus and or James are that important, why isn't there any hard evidence they'd ever existed?

	22-10-2002 22:04									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Jesus had tons of fanatical supporters who created the cult, now mainstream religion, of Christianity. The man was great. He didn't want a religion, he wanted to spread good morals. Unfortunately, his sick twisted followers spread this religion of evil across half the globe. It then helped spawn the other mainstream religion of evil that is Islam (which literally means 'submission'). I have problems with both of these religions as I'm sure you all know. Christianity - claims to gives answers to questions that God (or whoever) never meant to be answered on this Earth. Has been responsible for more death and war than any other religion, philosophy, or ideology in the history of human kind. Islam - pushes the idea of being submissive and impressionable onto its followers.... traditionally, the old Muslim world was quite the opposite, but with its own crusades and those of Christianity against it, Islam has been twisted into a doctrine of submission and hate... and I'm not just talking about the terrorists... mainstream Islam preaches these immoral concepts of submission, conformity, and assimilation; just as Christianity and American society does. [/end threadjack] anyways, its not surprising to find this evidence. IMO Jesus did exist... although... he did not walk on water, he was not the actual son of a deity (at least no more so than any other human being or living organism), he did not turn water in to wine and all that other bullsh*t. I am very anxious to hear more about the truth about Jesus's existence. It will only shed light on the lies and false truths that the religion of Christianity has spread throughout the world. I'm sure this will probably offend people. It offends me to, the evils that have been committed throughout history, and today; in the name of a God; who if exists, probably would have commit suicide at the sight of what his creations have done in his name.

Actually I agree with much of what you said. Jesus certainly did not condone all of the evil done in his name in the past two thousand years. In fact he specifically condemned and predicted the evil that would be committed in his name. Using his name to kill people, torture them and wage war against them is like using the name of Hitler to bring peace on earth and good will toward men.

	22-10-2002 22:14									#80
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quote: there is no external dating

Except the handwriting is characteristic for mid first-century aramaic and that form of burial ended in 70 AD so there's a relatively narrow window.

quote: The only thing that makes the shroud a fake is its age per radiocarbon dating .IIRC.

Hardly. Some other problems with the shroud:
-there's no blood on it, only red ochre and vermillion dye
-different dating techniques agree with each other
-the image doesn't have any of the distortion that would result in it being a print of something being wrapped around a body and then laid out flat, it looks like it was just painted on a flat surface.
-a lot more that I forget ATM...

quote: Watch out, Horsey. You have major competition.

quote: Nah

Exactly, no one-trick ponies can match the horse!

quote: because Jesus wasn't particulairy friends with the religious leaders.

Well Josephus spent a lot of time flaming rabble-rousing jewish preachers that brought the wrath of the romans down on judea but his only mention of jesus are in passages that have been obviously inserted/tampered with, which is a bit curious...

quote: I half recall that Tacitus mentioned him.

Yep, he talks about what christians in his time said about jesus which doesn't prove anything at all besides that there were christians in the time of Tacitus, since he doesn't draw on any kind of old/archival evidence about Christianity.

	23-10-2002 00:47									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Hueij DD, once again, if Jesus and or James are that important, why isn't there any hard evidence they'd ever existed?

Read this very thread. Christianity can never supply facts that a non-believer, will believe.

You also realize that James was not the only sibling, right?

	23-10-2002 00:51									#82
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Sava - to offend people, you'd have to be taken seriously.

phew... this is more fun not being taken seriously... it allows me to vent, say offensive things (within reason) and not get sent to Mingapulco ...

	23-10-2002 01:10									#83
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand Read this very thread. Christianity can never supply facts that a non-believer, will believe. You also realize that James was not the only sibling, right?

I've never understood why some non-believers are so ardently opposed to anything that might confirm the existence of Jesus. Its not like it suddenly proves he walked on water or fed the 5,000.

	23-10-2002 01:21									#84
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand Read this very thread. Christianity can never supply facts that a non-believer, will believe. You also realize that James was not the only sibling, right?

Oh? I was under the impression that the debate was about that box being archeological proof of the existence of a certain historical Jesus. It's not a matter of belief, it's a matter of hard facts (sourly missing I must say...). Everybody is entitled to his/her own beliefs but don't expect anybody else to share them.

	23-10-2002 01:21									#85
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Exactly. I have no interest in the existence of Jesus. It doesn't change the facts even if they found his corpse.

	23-10-2002 01:24									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Provost Harrison Exactly. I have no interest in the existence of Jesus. It doesn't change the facts even if they found his corpse.

Finding his corpse may be difficult - what with the ascension 'n' all.

	23-10-2002 01:24									#87
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Then why do people like you two invade all religious themed threads ?

	23-10-2002 01:25									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Hueij Oh? I was under the impression that the debate was about that box being archeological proof of the existence of a certain historical Jesus. It's not a matter of belief, it's a matter of hard facts (sourly missing I must say...).

An atheist started the thread. Take it up with him.

	23-10-2002 01:29									#89
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Denial is not a river in Egypt the last time I checked...

	23-10-2002 01:30									#90
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Let me re-phrase. Why do atheists feel so compelled to start religious threads?