26-10-2002 23:20									#31
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What a propagandist thread this has become. Lets be honest there is no way on god's earth that the Russian people would allow any leader to give Chechnya independance. Too many kids have died in defence of it to make that a possibility and that is before we even consider the geo-political implications of such a move. Chechnya had effective autonomy under the peace deal that Alexander Lebed struck at the beginning of Yeltsin's second term and was not exactly doing a grand job of showing how responsible they were under such an arrangement. The current Chechen war was engineered by the Kremlin to ensure they controlled the succession to Yeltsin and Putin was put in place because he was prepared to live with teh consequences of that act.

There has been a lot of discussion of whether the explosions in Moscow that destroyed several blocks of flats were actual Chechen atrocities or whether the State Security Apparatus blew the blocks up to cement the last bricks in Putin's election.

	26-10-2002 23:24									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel "An independent Chechnya would probably be a dictatorship of thugs, Muslims, and Muslim thugs, but this can't be helped, and can't be used as a justification for Russian neo-colonialism." what's the logic in that ?

Take Turkmenistan: a North-Korea-like dictatorship led by a megalomaniac Muslim president -- yet the Turkmens are better off than the poor people of Chechnya.

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	26-10-2002 23:37									#33
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you realize that the authoritarian leader of Turkmenistan is a staunch fighter against Islam? plus, Turkmenistan has lots of oil.

	26-10-2002 23:38									#34
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I doubt Russia can crush Chechen resistance without resorting to Stallinist methods of control (genocide, deportation) . But then again, they'll be a thorn in their side if they do let them be free: gangsters, trade, border wars, ethnic russian problems...

So its quite hard to know what do to. I'd try and kill them all if I was in Russia's position, but I've been playing too many wargames recently.

	26-10-2002 23:45									#35
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Then why do I see stuff on the news like women shot and stuff like that?

What's more wrong about women being shot than about men being shot? What special status does being of a particular gender give you? This is the Belgiumming 21st Century; it's time to leave mediaeval biases behind.

I voted yes; Chechnya should be given and guided to poliical stability by a United Nations peacekeeping force.

	26-10-2002 23:48									#36
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quote: Originally posted by MOBIUS People have been quick to condemn the Russians for what has happened in Chechnya and the subsequent crisis in Moscow...

I call BS on your whole entire stance on this issue.

	26-10-2002 23:58									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel you realize that the authoritarian leader of Turkmenistan is a staunch fighter against Islam?

No, he's not. You confuse Islam with Islamism (political Islam). Niyazov has gained total control of Islam in his country, but so has Saddam in Iraq, or the Saudis in their country. This doesn't make Niyazov a fighter against Islam.

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	27-10-2002 00:02									#38
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quote: Originally posted by St Leo I voted yes; Chechnya should be given and guided to poliical stability by a United Nations peacekeeping force.

The UN couldn't handle Chechnya. The Islamists would have them out in no time.

Independence is not the question, the question is self-determination. The Chechen people did not have self-determination, even when they were independent.

	27-10-2002 00:06									#39
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Independence is not the question, the question is self-determination. The Chechen people did not have self-determination, even when they were independent.

Neither have the Russians.

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	27-10-2002 00:07									#40
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St Leo, Because it's unlikely that old woman in village is a big threat. Civilian. I'm sorry if I hit some nerv in you saying woman. Woman.. woman woman woman.

	27-10-2002 00:09									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Taz with teh consequences of that act. There has been a lot of discussion of whether the explosions in Moscow that destroyed several blocks of flats were actual Chechen atrocities or whether the State Security Apparatus blew the blocks up to cement the last bricks in Putin's election.

Methinks you read Red Storm Rising too much....

	27-10-2002 00:44									#42
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did I already say how much that book sucks?

	27-10-2002 00:48									#43
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no I haven't. its common speculation in Russia and shortly after the bombs in Moscow an FSB team was caught red handed setting up more in a block of flats in Ryazan. they claimed they were just testing awareness but you don't need real explosives for that do you?

	27-10-2002 01:19									#44
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I rather doubt that. If they were cought red-handed , the ones that saw them do it, would not live to tell. After all, the FSB is said to be the organization least changed by the fall of the SU. And the KGB was a very strong organization.

	27-10-2002 01:34									#45
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Question :

How many Russian soldiers were killed in Chechnia? Official and not official figures.

	27-10-2002 02:02									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Guess you were on the side of the CSA, huh?

Actually no, because I don't feel they had a legitimate claim in that case. It's not like the USA conquered the CSA and then later the CSA wanted independence. Chechnya is culturally and religously different than Russia. USA and CSA - not so much.

	27-10-2002 02:08									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin How small can a denomination get when it comes to declaring independence in your opinion?

size doesn't matter. It's about the legitimacy of their reasons for independence. I'm not saying that anyone who wants independence from a government can just vote themselves exempt from policies, but if a people or land has been previously conquered yet has retained its identity and has not been assimilated, I don't see a problem (when a substantial number of the people in the area are unhappy with the current system) for said groups to lobby for independence. Peacefully is always best, but you're always going to get nut job terrorists going out and doing stupid things. That should be examined as a matter of that nations internal security, and not to negate the claims of the people who are going about it peacefully.

	27-10-2002 02:10									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Sonic Orange, there were already such electons, majority wanted independence. The same happened in other Russian-occupied country, Tatarstan.

I'm aware

	27-10-2002 02:39									#49
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Another sticky problem that cannot be solved. I tend to agree with Serb but the terrorism will not stop regardless of whether they gain independance or not. Fanatical nuts cannot be pacified. Hitler wanted more breathing room not just Germany. Crazy people are never satisfied. All society can do is try and kill them before they kill more innocent people. Giving them their own country is no more a solution than it would be to give Alaska to the KKK. Eventually they would tire of having no innocent people left to harass and they would launch out for happier hunting grounds. The entire government of Afganastan protected terrorists. Statehood is not necessarily a solution to this problem if fanatics gain power and usurp the will of the people.

	27-10-2002 02:58									#50
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quote: And what could you know about this?

They seemed to be pretty happy when they achieved independence from Russia. Independence is not equivalent to feudalistic fundie thuggery.

quote: Typical bullshit propaganda and fairy tales created especially for silly (from their point of view) Westerners who still see Imperial monster in Russia and who prefer to believe in such propaganda, even if this propaganda created by "people" who blow-up apartment buildings and took just born children in hostages in hospitals or took people who come to watch the musical in hostages.

Huh? I'm not aware Amnesty International or Human Rights Watch was involved in blowing up the apartment buildings or taking the people watching the musical hostage. I'm not "trusting" these people, I'm "trusting" impartial human rights organizations.

From the AI 2002 Report on Russia:

"Violations committed by Russian forces during 2001 included arbitrary detention in secret detention centres and pits in the ground, torture and ill-treatment, ''disappearances'', and extrajudicial executions. "

"Russian forces continued to arbitrarily detain civilians during raids on towns and villages in Chechnya. Detainees were reportedly ill-treated or tortured while held incommunicado. Bribes were so commonly extorted from relatives to secure detainees' release that the act of detention itself often appeared to be motivated by financial gain. Hundreds of people ''disappeared'' after being taken into custody; the mutilated bodies of some were later found, along with the bodies of other unidentified individuals, in more than a dozen dumping grounds and mass graves throughout Chechnya."

"The Russian federal authorities failed to investigate adequately widespread reports of human rights violations in Chechnya."

	27-10-2002 03:11									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel I rather doubt that. If they were cought red-handed , the ones that saw them do it, would not live to tell. After all, the FSB is said to be the organization least changed by the fall of the SU. And the KGB was a very strong organization.

Sorry its true and was widely reported in the press at the time. I don't make statements unless I am sure of them so ;P

	27-10-2002 03:32									#52
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Lincoln, no, the people needs their own country, otherwise terror will never stop.

Each new generation grew up in war will extend the time of war.

	27-10-2002 03:39									#53
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Wasn't Maskhadov one of those killed last night?

	27-10-2002 04:06									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel I rather doubt that. If they were cought red-handed , the ones that saw them do it, would not live to tell. After all, the FSB is said to be the organization least changed by the fall of the SU. And the KGB was a very strong organization.

It took one google search to turn up

quote: DID FSB BOMB PASSAGEWAY BENEATH PUSHKIN SQUARE? In their new book, former FSB officer Aleksandr Litvinenko and historian Yury Felshtinsky also assert that the Russian security services were behind the apartment building bombings in Moscow and several other cities in 1999, which killed nearly 300 people and were the proximate cause for the second Chechen war. The authors include a detailed examination of the events in Ryzan in September 1999, when local residents and police discovered what they said was a bomb made of the explosive hexogen in a local apartment building. FSB officials, including its director, Nikolai Patrushev, subsequently claimed that the alleged hexogen was only sugar and that the incident was part of an FSB-organized "training exercise" designed to test readiness. The Ryzan incident occurred just weeks after the apartment building bombings in the cities of Buinaksk, Volgodonsk and Moscow. Some observers believe that the Russian special services were involved in those bombings and that in the Ryzan incident the special services were simply caught in the act of trying to plant a real bomb.

More HERE
Scroll down to articule 12.

	27-10-2002 09:37									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel did I already say how much that book sucks?

But it's better than the rest of Clownzy books

	27-10-2002 09:38									#56
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quote: Originally posted by orange It's about the legitimacy of their reasons for independence. I'm not saying that anyone who wants independence from a government can just vote themselves exempt from policies, but if a people or land has been previously conquered yet has retained its identity and has not been assimilated, I don't see a problem (when a substantial number of the people in the area are unhappy with the current system) for said groups to lobby for independence.

What about Native Americans? Will you gladly give up your land if they want independence?

	27-10-2002 09:47									#57
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I'd vote yes only if the Mexicans in Southern California get their own country too. How about the Cubans in Miami, let's give them their own country, too. It's the same bull sh!t story with the Albanians in Kosovo. If you don't like the way the country is run, if you don't want to have your children taught in the schools, if you don't want to be part of the society, than get the **** out of the country.

	27-10-2002 09:48									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger What about Native Americans? Will you gladly give up your land if they want independence?

Darn, wish I thought of that one, too.

	27-10-2002 10:18									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger What about Native Americans? Will you gladly give up your land if they want independence?

Thats great.

	27-10-2002 10:22									#60
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quote: What about Native Americans? Will you gladly give up your land if they want independence?

If indian reservations want complete independence why not?