26-10-2002 07:28									#1
	Chechnya - do they deserve independence? Inflate your Upload Space

People have been quick to condemn the Russians for what has happened in Chechnya and the subsequent crisis in Moscow...

Let's examine just how much the Russians are to blame, and whether the Chechens deserve independence.

Here is a link to the Chechen Timeline

From there you can scoot around and glean as much info as you like so as to prepare your stance.

OK, so maybe they have a lot to be angry about especially after Stalin - but what about when they gained de facto independence?

It seems that to my mind that they weren't content to stay within their borders - Both times the Russians invaded was because of border incidents and actions to the detriment of Russian security.

The second time around was far worse as after the Chechen govt slipped into anarchy, bombs were set off in Moscow and serious attempts were made to destabilise neighbouring Dagestan!

Much is made of the estimated 200,000 civilians that have died in this conflict - but how many of those are at the hands of the Russians, and how many are at the hands of the Chechens with their purges of ethnic Russians and imposition of their harsh Sharia laws?

So, off you scuttle and read up on the situation and come back and post your responses...

	26-10-2002 07:51									#2
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If they had gained completely legal and not just de facto independence around 1991-2 like the other states that split from the USSR, things may (or may not) have been better, but that would be pure especulation...

As a people they would certainly deserve independence in theory, but in practice, they won't get it, there's just too much bad blood between them and the current Russia by now...

	26-10-2002 08:43									#3
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Not only don't they deserve any independence, but their criminal mafia culture should be thoroughly eradicated.

	26-10-2002 08:50									#4
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I voted yes, in that, free elections should be held determine what people of Chechnya want. If the majority want to be independent, they should be independent.

	26-10-2002 10:28									#5
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quote: Not only don't they deserve any independence, but their criminal mafia culture should be thoroughly eradicated.

So their resistance to Russian oppression is sufficient excuse for continued Russian oppression. Joy.

	26-10-2002 10:29									#6
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when will we stop enforcing nationalism and move toward achieving globalization....

	26-10-2002 10:40									#7
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quote: Originally posted by orange I voted yes, in that, free elections should be held determine what people of Chechnya want. If the majority want to be independent, they should be independent.

Guess you were on the side of the CSA, huh?

	26-10-2002 10:57									#8
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Of course they deserve independence. Chechens clearly want it, and Russia has been committing horrendous atrocities in Chechnya.

	26-10-2002 11:04									#9
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I thought they had declared independence in 91 or something like that? Russian military actions seem to be a response to Chechen attacks after that.

	26-10-2002 16:20									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo Of course they deserve independence. Chechens clearly want it,

And what could you know about this?
For you what bandits wants and what Chechen people wants is the same. You beleive to terrorists. You think that terrorists who hiding in your countries represent will of all Chechen people. You think they supported by Chechen population. All this is bullshit.
Right now, at this moment in Chechnya several thousands people are talking on several meetings. Do you know what type of slogans those Chechen people have? "Maskhadov go away from Chechnya" "No more Vahhabism, no more terrorism"
People want peace, but not to be robbered by those bandits which you consider as representatives of Chechen people.

quote: and Russia has been committing horrendous atrocities in Chechnya.

Typical bullshit propaganda and fairy tales created especially for silly (from their point of view) Westerners who still see Imperial monster in Russia and who prefer to believe in such propaganda, even if this propaganda created by "people" who blow-up apartment buildings and took just born children in hostages in hospitals or took people who come to watch the musical in hostages. Fine, you prefer to trust to those "people", then trust to us.
We will never be freinds then.
I saw a lot of articles about American atrocities in Afghanistan, how your soldiers are torturing people here, how they torturing imprissoned Taliban memebers, etc. But I can determinate where is true and where is propaganda. Because earlier I saw absolutely the same articles about Russian atrocities in Chechnya. It's the same bullshit created in the same propaganda factory. But what consider your soldiers you believe is lie, and what consider Russian soldiers you belive is true. Great. Just ****ing great. You prefer to believe to Islamic terrorists then to people of democratic country.
They just killed 67 people, and thanks to God and Russian specnaz that this number only 67, because in case of explosion more then 800 hostages including children could be dead now.
What else should happen before you'll understand to whose lies you beleive? They are terrorists, TERRORISTS, not rebel or freedom fighters. They don't represent will of Chechen people. They represent will of world wide Islam extremism a Vahhabite teachings, they represent a will of people who dream about united Fundamentalist Islamic state.
The people who call your country, YOUR Ramo, as their most hated enemy.
And you still can't see that we have a common enemy.

	26-10-2002 16:37									#11
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Serb, a lot of us do see.

	26-10-2002 17:27									#12
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quote: Originally posted by JCG If they had gained completely legal and not just de facto independence around 1991-2 like the other states that split from the USSR, things may (or may not) have been better, but that would be pure especulation...

Actually Chechnya was not in itself a separate state of the former Soviet Union, but a small part of 'Russia' (RSFR I think?) itself. A part that Russia conquered in 1858.

The political equivalent would be like the US giving Mexico back all the territory it conquered in a most underhand way in, oh around about the same time (1846-48)...

So, for those who have voted for Chechen independence - you can see where I'm going with this...

	26-10-2002 18:57									#13
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MOBIUS, no it wouldn't be political equivalent since USA didn't annexed whole Mexico, just a part of it, while Chechenya doesn't has independence at all. Everybody who voted no are very cruel. Most of them doesn't know what is tio live in occupied country anyway, especially when it is occupied by Russians.

	26-10-2002 19:11									#14
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What are you suggesting there, Mobius?
To keep the story straight, Mexico didn't give do-dah.
Not suprisingly maybe, I vote Chechnya should have their independance.

Last edited by SlowwHand on 26-10-2002 at 19:43

	26-10-2002 19:33									#15
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quote: Originally posted by orange I voted yes, in that, free elections should be held determine what people of Chechnya want. If the majority want to be independent, they should be independent.

How small can a denomination get when it comes to declaring independence in your opinion?

	26-10-2002 19:42									#16
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Orange, there were already such electons, majority wanted independence. The same happened in other Russian-occupied country, Tatarstan.

	26-10-2002 19:46									#17
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Serb, are you trying to say Russian soldiers are not using too much force sometimes? Then why do I see stuff on the news like women shot and stuff like that? And official sources from different countries with simular material? All propaganda?
Some might be propaganda, but it's not all propaganda. If you think that your soldiers have not participated in some of those horrific acts, then you are yourself victim of propaganda, and blinded by it.
I'm NOT saying that they are ordered to torture or whatever. It's war there, and soldiers are individuals, and stuff sometimes happens.. you know that, I know that. I don't think it's systematic, bad stuff just happens sometimes and rotten eggs are in every army.

Just like in the lines of Chechens. We just saw the rotten eggs from there too. But they are not ALL terrorists and scum, don't you think? Some are for sure.

I saw a document where young Russians had to go to the army and were then sent to Chechenya. It was pretty bad, since they didn't have very long training, and the fighters in Chechen force had much more experience, so they got ambushed and stuff like that. It doesn't mean they're terrorists. And things like that makes you frustrated, and sometimes overkills happens. Do you agree?

and as for the question, I don't know.. I don't know enough about Chechens and their cause, or to be more accurate, I don't know their history with Russia.

	26-10-2002 19:54									#18
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quote: Originally posted by MOBIUS - you can see where I'm going with this...

Yes, your one track mind is well known here.

	26-10-2002 21:03									#19
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The Chechens were very happy to have their independence, but they quickly lost their freedoms to the Islamic gangsters which took over the country. The Chechen people of Grozny are happy to be liberated, and what they want now, most of all, is peace.

Serb, the Russians are trying very hard to keep what is going on from being heard by the rest of the world, but they cannot stop all of the information. Russian soldiers haven't kept quiet, and Western media has been able to get in and out of Chechnya with evidence of attrocities committed by the Russians: torture, disappearances, mass killings.

The goodwill that the Russians had in liberating the Chechen people from their oppressors has been squandered by typical Russian ham-handedness.

Mobius, everyone deserves independence. The choice, however, is up to them. I guarantee the majority of people living in the Southwest US don't want to return to Mexico, probably not even a majority of Mexicans living there.

	26-10-2002 21:09									#20
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Yes, Chegitz. Russia even does not allows any journalists or foreign people to Chechnya. And yes, Russians commited many attrocities, they killed about 200'000 people in genocide.

	26-10-2002 21:32									#21
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The relationship between Russia and Chechnya is very much like that between European powers and their colonies, which in most cases ended some 40 years ago.
Chechens have the same right to independence as Estonians or Tajiks. An independent Chechnya would probably be a dictatorship of thugs, Muslims, and Muslim thugs, but this can't be helped, and can't be used as a justification for Russian neo-colonialism.

--

	26-10-2002 21:40									#22
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The Chechens d0o have very bad blood with the Russians: The original war to annex the area went on for decades and was very bloody, and good Ol' Stalin (yes, even if he was Gerogian) had the entire population sent to Siberia, so it should be no surprise that they wanted out of Russia, and still do.

The bahavior of the Russian army in chechnya is attrocious, but its not just a Russian things: its bound to happen when you put lots of green conscripts in a land full of enemies that look like everyone else, people who don't like you very much, the boredom of doing little mixed with terror, low pay, lots of drugs and such moving about that's a recipe for cruel actions. American soldiers would do tha same in such a situation, specialy if the gov. decided to overlook any criminal activity on the part of it soldiers until it becomes simply too embarrasing.

The best solution is autonomy, under Russian suzereinity.

	26-10-2002 22:08									#23
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One of the significant things about the hostage situation, however, was the fact that Moscow Chechens volunteered to take the place of hostages.

There isn't total hatred between the two communities.

	26-10-2002 22:11									#24
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara One of the significant things about the hostage situation, however, was the fact that Moscow Chechens volunteered to take the place of hostages. There isn't total hatred between the two communities.

I would think the Moscow Chechens have a lot to loose in this situations.

	26-10-2002 22:18									#25
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There are risks either way. Either they do nothing and let their fellow Mucovites hate them or they exchange themselves for Russians and be considered traitors by the terrorists who have seized the hostages. Either way, they had a lot to lose.

	26-10-2002 22:21									#26
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quote: Yes, Chegitz. Russia even does not allows any journalists or foreign people to Chechnya. And yes, Russians commited many attrocities, they killed about 200'000 people in genocide.

Dudev- Chechen president (so belowed by you sonic) orederd to start Jihad against unbelievers. They start to cut throwts to all non-Chechen population of Chechnya. What do you think Russians should do just watch?
Those 200 000 were killed mostly by those freedom fighters during first weeksof Jihad.

	26-10-2002 22:23									#27
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che: me thinks that the suggestion was a show of sympathy at max, because the chechen terrorists have already released the muslim part of the audience, at that point.

quote: An independent Chechnya would probably be a dictatorship of thugs, Muslims, and Muslim thugs, but this can't be helped, and can't be used as a justification for Russian neo-colonialism.

what's the logic in that ?

	26-10-2002 22:38									#28
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara One of the significant things about the hostage situation, however, was the fact that Moscow Chechens volunteered to take the place of hostages. There isn't total hatred between the two communities.

At least one man start to realize that will of terrorists and will of Chechen people is different things. Chechen people hate those bandits (which you call official representatives of Chechen people Maskhadov and Co) no less then Russians.
Today in Chechnya was many meetings locals CHEHCEN people started those meetings. Thier slogans were- “No Vahhabism, no terrorism”, “Maskhadov get away from Chechnya”. I wonder if your mass media showed those meetings.
Not only Chechen who live in Moscow offered to exchange themselves for children who were inside, but Chechens from Chechnya wanted to come to Moscow.
I wounder if your media showed Chechen womens in Chechnya who was happy when situation was resolved. Just compare it with video when Palestine women was happy after Sept 11 and you'll see the difference.
For three years Chechen people suffered from Vahhabites and all kinf of bandits, Chechen people hate Maskhadov and his sefs who did this hostage capture no less then Russian.

	26-10-2002 22:53									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Oldenbarnevelt The relationship between Russia and Chechnya is very much like that between European powers and their colonies, which in most cases ended some 40 years ago. Chechens have the same right to independence as Estonians or Tajiks. An independent Chechnya would probably be a dictatorship of thugs, Muslims, and Muslim thugs, but this can't be helped, and can't be used as a justification for Russian neo-colonialism. --

We already went trough this. Since 1996, for three years those guys were free to do all what they want. We didn't controled them even a bit. And they created their "state" and It was extreme fanatical Islam dictatorship based on Vahhabite teachings. It ended when they attacked us again in 1999. They exploded several apartment buildings in few cities of Russia and started expansion- invaded neighbor Dagestan. They can’t just remain in their borders they need to grow, because their goal isn’t Chechnya. Their goal is united extreme fanatic Islamic state based on Shariah law and vahhabite teachings. The state from Indonesia to Tatarstasn. This is what they want- dictatorship of vahhabism. They are fanatics and they will not stop until kill all unbelievers. I don’t mean terrorists in Chechnya only, but worldwide terrorists part of them is Chechen terrorists.

	26-10-2002 22:58									#30
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quote: The best solution is autonomy, under Russian suzereinity.

The last terrorist act in Moscow was an attemt to stop political solution in Chechnya. Soon the should be a referendum. Maskhadov and his bandids feel that people of Chechnya is not on their side. It was scream of desperados.
Chechnya will be a wide autonomy (it's already in fact, but after consitution will be accepted by people it will become legaly), and it will be under Russian suzereinity.
At least untill we'll be 100% sure that it will not become "home, sweet home" for terrorists, kidnapers and slavers. At least untill we'll be 100% sure that they will not attack us again.