27-10-2002 10:24									#61
	Put an end to popups!

Not just the reservations David, the whole continent. What if they want the whole continent back?

	27-10-2002 10:26									#62
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Sava I'd vote yes only if the Mexicans in Southern California get their own country too. How about the Cubans in Miami, let's give them their own country, too. It's the same bull sh!t story with the Albanians in Kosovo. If you don't like the way the country is run, if you don't want to have your children taught in the schools, if you don't want to be part of the society, than get the **** out of the country.

You know you are the second person to bring up that comparsion. Let them have a vote if you think it would do any good. We can have a vote in Chechnya and the Southwest and see what the people want. If you really want to look smart, compare the situation with Hawaii. (edit: or even Puerto Rico) But your southwest comparsion is kind of weak.

BTW. The Native Americans are independent nations with treaties with the US. They may not be exactly what you want but your theory is defeated by that small detail.

	27-10-2002 10:31									#63
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Not just the reservations David, the whole continent. What if they want the whole continent back?

Are the Chechens asking for all of Russia? If not, why the native american comparison

	27-10-2002 10:32									#64
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Why? Because both are countries.

	27-10-2002 10:39									#65
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Why? Because both are countries.

So the situations are the same. So if the Chechens are allowed to get independence, then it only makes sense that Native Americans and Hispanics get independence as well? Tell me Urban. Should the Hispanics get the Southwest or should the Native Americans?


The US and Malta are both countries. Does that mean they are exactly the same?

	27-10-2002 10:41									#66
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

The Chechens don't want to rule the entire Russian Federation; they just want to be able to govern themselves without taking orders from Moscow. The issue is autonomy, not land redistribution.

	27-10-2002 11:59									#67
	Remove this text

If one separatist movement is legitimate, then all separatist movements are legitimate. Or at least they can make themselves legitimate.

	27-10-2002 13:09									#68
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Ramo The Chechens don't want to rule the entire Russian Federation; they just want to be able to govern themselves without taking orders from Moscow. The issue is autonomy, not land redistribution.

They had autonomy under the lebed deal. Guess that didn't work out eh?

	28-10-2002 19:45									#69
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Lord Merciless Not only don't they deserve any independence, but their criminal mafia culture should be thoroughly eradicated.

This same could be said about Russia

	28-10-2002 19:49									#70
	Re: Chechnya - do they deserve independence? Inflate your Upload Space

quote: It seems that to my mind that they weren't content to stay within their borders - Both times the Russians invaded was because of border incidents and actions to the detriment of Russian security. The second time around was far worse as after the Chechen govt slipped into anarchy, bombs were set off in Moscow and serious attempts were made to destabilise neighbouring Dagestan!

Ekhem - The attack on Dagestan was a bandit action that had nothing to do with Tchechenian gouverment, and was condemned by it.

The case of bombs in Moscow isn't yet solved - there are no proofs it was a Tchechenian fault.

Anyway know what Russians are doing in Tchechenia.
Mass rapes, mass murders, misterious "disappearings"
of Tchechenians, crippling them with especiall emphasis in crippling their genitals so that they couldn't reproduce... It's all Russia.

	28-10-2002 19:57									#71
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Of course they deserve their freedom but if Russians will pull out will they become another Afghanistan?! Or will the right s of all people be secured?!

The UN has a great mission here and a very difficult one. Although, I do not see them doing anything about it.


So long...

	28-10-2002 20:06									#72
	Re: Re: Chechnya - do they deserve independence? Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Heresson Ekhem - The attack on Dagestan was a bandit action that had nothing to do with Tchechenian gouverment, and was condemned by it. The case of bombs in Moscow isn't yet solved - there are no proofs it was a Tchechenian fault. Anyway know what Russians are doing in Tchechenia. Mass rapes, mass murders, misterious "disappearings" of Tchechenians, crippling them with especiall emphasis in crippling their genitals so that they couldn't reproduce... It's all Russia.

This sounds to me much like Arafat condemning both condemning terrorism and financing it.

I the government of Chechnya really were against the so-called bandits, they would have welcomed Russian troops to suppress the bandits - or formed an alliance.

Instead, they fought side by side with the so-called bandits.

	28-10-2002 20:31									#73
	Re: Re: Re: Chechnya - do they deserve independence? Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Ned This sounds to me much like Arafat condemning both condemning terrorism and financing it. I the government of Chechnya really were against the so-called bandits, they would have welcomed Russian troops to suppress the bandits - or formed an alliance. Instead, they fought side by side with the so-called bandits.

Russians didn't want to cooperate with Tchechenian authorities, not the other way round. Tchechenian gouverment didn't involve in supporting the mentioned bandits, and it started fighting only when Russians entered Tchechenia.

	28-10-2002 21:16									#74
	Tired of ads?

Sure do the Chechen people deserve their freedom and even more after all, what the Russians have done to them. I don't support acts of terror like in the Nord-Ost theater (should it's name not be Severo-Vostok, why a Russian theater has a German name?), but I support the fight of the Chechen people for their independence. Just like Yeltsin, I consider Putin to be a war criminal and mass murderer.

Just give them their freedom, and I don't mean some half-hearted autonomy. So it's an inhumane islamic regime they want? May be, but it's the way they want to live, nobody gives us the right to judge. So let them. Close the borders and don't let Chechens into Russia. And don't deliver them oil. But wait... wasn't plenty of oil in and around Chechnya? Maybe I understand now what all this is about...

	28-10-2002 21:20									#75
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Actually, I do have the right to judge an inhumane islamic regime... and the children of peoples like the Chechens, Albanians, Iraqis, Afghanis, etc; deserve basic human rights. The most important of which is freedom. Democracy is the only just form of government. Now, the type of Democracy they want is entirely up to them.

	28-10-2002 21:25									#76
	Re: Re: Re: Re: Chechnya - do they deserve independence? Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Heresson Russians didn't want to cooperate with Tchechenian authorities, not the other way round. Tchechenian gouverment didn't involve in supporting the mentioned bandits, and it started fighting only when Russians entered Tchechenia.

This is all consistent with the government of Chechnya being in bed with terrorists in the first place.

	28-10-2002 21:26									#77
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Sava Actually, I do have the right to judge an inhumane islamic regime... and the children of peoples like the Chechens, Albanians, Iraqis, Afghanis, etc; deserve basic human rights.

I think the Chechen women prefer to be humble islamic wives rather than to be raped by russian soldiers. And yes, we can judge verbal, but nobody gives us the right to drop bombs. This includes Putin.

	28-10-2002 21:37									#78
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph I think the Chechen women prefer to be humble islamic wives rather than to be raped by russian soldiers. And yes, we can judge verbal, but nobody gives us the right to drop bombs. This includes Putin.

I think the Chechen women would rather be free from the male dominated oppressive system of Islam.

I agree with you somewhat... carpet bombing Chechnya is just plain wrong. But I wouldn't be opposed to Putin going in and liberating Chechnya. Ideally, I'd like to see Chechnya be an independent democratic nation. But right now the choice seems to be:
1) be ruled by oppressive Islamic system
2) be part of corrupt Russian democracy

At least with #2, Russia has some degree of control over terrorism. If Russia were to pull out of Chechnya and grant the Islamic fundies their independence, do you think the terrorism would stop? If you say yes, you are incredibly naive.

	28-10-2002 21:53									#79
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Sava, Even the United States has an interest in Russian victory. We saw many Chechens in Afghanistan. They were a key component of al Qaida. I suspect the so-called rebels are primarily Muslim extremists, not Chechen democratic nationalists. If these people were to win, they would no doubt establish Chechnya as an extremist Islamic state that would harbor al Qaida.

I think the Russians have to win and keep Chechnya under control until the war on terror is over.

Several years ago, the war in Chechnya was not well understood by Americans. It seems like a conventional struggle for freedom not unlike our own American revolution. I suspect that most Americans had no idea that Chechnya was Muslim, nor had any idea that radical Islam was planning to destroy America. 9/11 changed our perceptions of the world and our perception of Chechnya.

	28-10-2002 21:54									#80
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Sava At least with #2, Russia has some degree of control over terrorism. If Russia were to pull out of Chechnya and grant the Islamic fundies their independence, do you think the terrorism would stop? If you say yes, you are incredibly naive.

	28-10-2002 22:12									#81
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Sprayber If you really want to look smart, compare the situation with Hawaii.

Beat me to the punch! Hawai'i's monarchy was overthrown by the US, who then despoiled the place turning one of their most sacred islands (Kahoolawe) into a gunnery target!

The majority of Hawai'ians would like to be independen - problem is that they are outnumbered by the other 90% of the population (the US did a good colonisation job!)

Still, things are looking better - when I was there, there seemed to be a real cultural awareness coming through in places like the Big Island...

So, if you're American and want Chechnya independent - you gotta want Hawai'i independent too!

BTW Ramo, Chechnya was a mostly autonomous state within Russia - most of the outlying ones usually are IIRC. They certainly had in 1991-94 & 1996-99 but they threw it away both times...

Do they deserve a third bite at the cherry???

	29-10-2002 00:27									#82
	Got spare money?

Sir Ralph, Why are you Germans consistently supporting enemies of the United States, the UK and Russia? I see a long and consistent pattern in the posts of Germans on this forum.

	29-10-2002 01:40									#83
	Increase Your PM Length

Ned, I have some possible explanations for you:

1. Germans have aversion to anything that resembles the use of military force. Their post WW2 slogan, "Nie Wieder Krieg", has more authority on people's mind than their constitution.

2. Another thing, in case you people haven't noticed so far, is that most Euros support any kind of separatist movement. They were ethusiatic about the breakups of USSR, they accelerated the disintegration of Yugoslavia, they had done nothing against Scotland and NI trying to break up, they were sympathetic to Quebecans attempting independence, and they certainly welcome the Chechnyan trying to do the same.

	29-10-2002 01:45									#84
	That was quite stupid of them, wasn't it? Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Lord Merciless they accelerated the disintegration of Yugoslavia,

How did they do that?

	29-10-2002 01:47									#85
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

No, LM. The European politicians are playing the same realpolitik as everyone else, and don't take any rights or wrongs into consideration. Their INTERESTS and their interests alone are the guide to their policies, and I don't denounce them because of that, or feel disgusted by it, due to the fact that EVERYONE DOES IT. The only think I dislike in geo-politics is the bullshit veil . Cut the crap, people! It is so clear that morality of any sort doesn't come into play in these games...

	29-10-2002 01:55									#86
	Re: That was quite stupid of them, wasn't it? Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc How did they do that?

Don't remember back in 1990 and 1991? Yugoslavia was already unstable, but a peaceful settlement was not out of reach. It was Germany and some of its EU cronies who unilaterily recognized Croatia, Slovenia, and Bosnia. It was then a no brainer that nationalists in these countries got enboldened and the conflicts immediately escalated.

When the schootings really started, Germany and other EU states didn't do anything(their "nie wieder Krieg" slogan had something to do with it), leading to the long Croatian and Bosnian wars that ultimately killed 200,000 people and devastated the former Yugoslavia. It was not until the US stepped in and destroyed Bosnian Serb's heavy weapons, that finally ended the war in Bosnia. Then the Euros still had the guts to protest against our intervention!

	29-10-2002 01:58									#87
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Azazel No, LM. The European politicians are playing the same realpolitik as everyone else, and don't take any rights or wrongs into consideration. Their INTERESTS and their interests alone are the guide to their policies, and I don't denounce them because of that, or feel disgusted by it, due to the fact that EVERYONE DOES IT. The only think I dislike in geo-politics is the bullshit veil . Cut the crap, people! It is so clear that morality of any sort doesn't come into play in these games...

These politicians are reasonable. My hat off to them.

What I'm talking about is the vast leftist, ignorant and day-dreaming masses who are quite mainstream in Europe. You should know by now what people like Saint Marcus, Sir Ralph, Mobius are thinking.

	29-10-2002 02:02									#88
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Azazel, If you are right, the post cold war world is reforming along the pattern that existed prior to WWI, but this time, with France in Germany's corner.

	29-10-2002 02:05									#89
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Azazel Cut the crap, people!

Quite - you accused me of making something up and I provided evidence and source for my statement. It wouldn't hurt you to at least acknowledge this.

	29-10-2002 02:10									#90
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Sonic, it's really a pity Chechnya doesn't have a common border with Lithuania. Otherwise we would gladly set them free and watch what could happen to your country.

Actually, I guess, the optimal location for the independent Chechnya would be somewhere between Lithuania and Poland.