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Ramo
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Austin, Texas, USA
Oct 1999
time: 23:23
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quote:
They had autonomy under the lebed deal. Guess that didn't work out eh? |
AFAIK, the Russian gov't has provided no evidence that Chechens were responsible for the bombing of the appartment complex, and I'm not particularly inclined to take the Russian's gov't's word without corroboration. The government isn't exactly the model of humanitarianism or honesty. It's entirely possible that Chechen terrorists were responsible, but I wouldn't accept that with any certainty...
IIRC, at the time of the terract, Russian security agents were caught by the local militia planting a bomb somewhere in Moscow (which they explained away as "testing the security"  ).
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The majority of Hawai'ians would like to be independen - problem is that they are outnumbered by the other 90% of the population (the US did a good colonisation job!) |
Again, I was not aware the Chechens are demanding control of the entire Russian Federation. The comparison isn't analagous.
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So, if you're American and want Chechnya independent - you gotta want Hawai'i independent too! |
If they want to be independent, more power to 'em!  However, it's the decision of all Hawaiians, not just the natives.
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BTW Ramo, Chechnya was a mostly autonomous state within Russia - most of the outlying ones usually are IIRC. They certainly had in 1991-94 [...] but they threw it away |
Huh? A civil war broke out in Chechnya, and Russia backed one of the sides. How did the Chechens throw anything away?
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Do they deserve a third bite at the cherry??? |
Because some fundie warlords hijacked the country and participated in terrorism, do the Chechen people deserve to be raped, tortured, subject to "disappearances," wantonly bombed, etc.?
The sad thing is, after everything Russia has done in Chechnya, it's questionable whether the warlords will ever lose their grip on power.
Last edited by Ramo on 29-10-2002 at 03:58
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CapTVK
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Voorburg, the Netherlands, Europe
Jan 1970
time: 05:23
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The lack of proper information or any attempt by some of the posters to do some research in this thread is (as usual) shocking. As a standard I don't even bother reading these sort of threads as they're a big waste of time...personal interpretations and opinions without proper facts are like dum dums, both have hollow points... 
You wanted an answer? Here's one that should have been followed two years ago!
quote:
234 Ford House Office Building
Washington, D.C. 20515-6460
Rep. Christopher H. Smith, Chairman
Sen. Ben Nighthorse Campbell, Co-Chairman
For Immediate Release
www.csce.gov
Media Contact: Chadwick R. Gore
202.225.1901
February 2, 2000
Russian Bombing of Nuclear Waste Dumps
Charged by Chechen Parliamentarians
(Washington, DC) — “The charge that Russian forces have allegedly bombed known Russian nuclear waste sites in Chechnya—one in Grozny and four others outside the city—by Seilam Bechaev and Tourpal-Ali Kaimov of the Chechen Parliament has greatly increased my concern and anxiety over developments in the region,” said Commission Chairman Rep. Christopher H. Smith (R-NJ) at a Commission briefing today.
Mr. Seilam Bechaev, Vice President of the Chechen Parliament and Mr. Tourpal-Ali Kaimov, Chairman of the Budget Committee of the Chechen Parliament, were providing a comprehensive overview of the current situation in Chechnya to the Commission.
“As we meet here today, a devastating war is taking place in Chechnya,” said Smith. “What the Russian Government describes as an ‘anti-terrorist operation,’ has degenerated—if it wasn’t already planned—into a war of destruction against the people of Chechnya. In response to concern from the international community, the Russian government and military simply claim that the conflict is an ‘internal matter’ despite a 1991 OSCE commitment that human rights issues ‘are of direct and legitimate concern to all participating States’ and are not exclusively any country’s ‘internal affair.’ Nothing justifies the shelling of peaceful villages, strafing of buses and killing refugees fleeing from the fighting, setting up ‘filtration camps’ for males between the ages of 10 and 60 under ‘suspicion’ of being guerrillas, and the entire litany of brutal acts by the Russian military that bears no relation to combating terrorism.”
Also participating in the briefing was Commissioner Rep. Joseph R. Pitts (R-PA).
In a written statement submitted to the briefing, House International Relations Committee Chairman Rep. Benjamin A. Gilman (R-NY suggested that “it may be appropriate at this time for the United States to bring a resolution before the United Nations Security Council regarding this brutal operation.”
Bechaev and Kaimov claimed that Arab “emissaries” had conspired with Russia’s Special Services to promote this latest conflict, in which there are over 200,000 refugees and 10,000 dead.
After Mr. Smith pointed out the near-unanimous passage of House Resolution 206 condemning the Russian acts in Chechnya (which Smith acknowledged were “mere words”), he asked what steps the U.S. should take to end this conflict.
Bechaev responded that:
–The World Bank should refuse and withhold funds for Russia;
- An international committee should be arranged with the authority to investigate and negotiate an end to the conflict. (At the November 1999 OSCE Summit, the OSCE participating States, including the Russian Federation, reaffirmed the existing mandate of the OSCE Assistance Group in Chechnya and stated that the assistance of the OSCE would contribute to achieving a political solution to the crisis.);
- Sanctions should be placed upon the Russian Federation;
- Chechen and Russian representatives should meet with a U.S. mediator;
- Humanitarian aid and NGO access to the Chechens should be allowed; and,
- The U.S. should provide support to build an independent democratic government in Chechnya.
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I should note that since then the situation in Chechnya has not improved for the better
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Sonic
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Vilnius, Lithuania
Dec 2001
time: 07:23
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Vagabond and what would happen? We already have some Chechens because of visa-free regime with Kaliningrad - these people jumped out of trains. Yet currently nothing happened.
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MOBIUS
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Prifysgol Caerdydd
Dec 1999
time: 15:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Ramo
AFAIK, the Russian gov't has provided no evidence that Chechens were responsible for the bombing of the appartment complex, and I'm not particularly inclined to take the Russian's gov't's word without corroboration. The government isn't exactly the model of humanitarianism or honesty. It's entirely possible that Chechen terrorists were responsible, but I wouldn't accept that with any certainty...
IIRC, at the time of the terract, Russian security agents were caught by the local militia planting a bomb somewhere in Moscow (which they explained away as "testing the security" ). |
Yes, it all looks highly suss...
However, there were also then insurgent strikes into Dagestan, numerous hijacks and lots of hostage taking as well - if you'd like to address those too...
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Again, I was not aware the Chechens are demanding control of the entire Russian Federation. The comparison isn't analagous. |
Funny, last I heard the Hawai'ians only wanted Hawai'i?
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If they want to be independent, more power to 'em! However, it's the decision of all Hawaiians, not just the natives. |
Ah well that's only because the US did such a good job colonising the place with imported labour and overrunning the local population...
That's why there was that coup in Fiji, and racial flare-ups in Bhutan. The natives are worried that the Indians and Nepalese respectively will become the majorities in their own countries and that they will lose the right to self determination in their own country - one reason why Israel doesn't want the right of return for Palestinian Refugees...
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Huh? A civil war broke out in Chechnya, and Russia backed one of the sides. How did the Chechens throw anything away? |
By fighting amongst themselves and allowing the situation to arise...
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Because some fundie warlords hijacked the country and participated in terrorism, do the Chechen people deserve to be raped, tortured, subject to "disappearances," wantonly bombed, etc.? |
Some???
More like a whole f*cking army of them!
Where were the Chechen forces to put down this lawlessness occurring in their own country? They themselves had descended into the general anarchy itself, it would appear...
I agree that nobody deserves to be raped, tortured, subject to "disappearances," wantonly bombed, etc.
But then a lot of that has also happened to the ethnic Russians in (or were in) Chechnya - I mean it doesn't take a rocket scientist to realise that if you've got Chechen Terrorists running around hacking the heads off kidnapped Westerners, they're probably not above meting out the stuff you mentioned on the 'invader' civilians...
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The sad thing is, after everything Russia has done in Chechnya, it's questionable whether the warlords will ever lose their grip on power. |
Personally I think both parties are to blame to a greater or lesser extent - pointing the finger is not going to solve nothing and only serve to extend the suffering of the civilians of both sides in Chechnya.
I think the ultimate goal of Chechnya should be a period of autonomy followed by the possibility of peace. The question is can they be trusted not to export their terror beyond their borders like they've done in the past?
Last edited by MOBIUS on 29-10-2002 at 10:38
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Lord Merciless
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quote:
Originally posted by Myrddin
Lord Merciless - before attacking Europe over the break-up of Yugoslavia, think about what the US did in Kosovo - Albright's War
In order to get rid of Milosovic, the US carried out an aggressive war to break-up Serbia changing the post WWII rules that state borders could not be changed by force |
We prevented another Bosnian tragedie from happening by taking the initiative. You Euros were very supportive in that war, even Germany carried out combat missions.
And it was Clinton who needed to wag some dogs in order to increase his popularity. BTW, you guys love him, don't you?
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Lord Merciless
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Who cares?
You Euros are jealous about countries that have larger territories. Subconsciously, you Euros want all of them to distintegrate so that European countries don't seem too small by comparison.
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Lord Merciless
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quote:
Originally posted by Sir Ralph
Yes. That's also, why most of us support an independent state of Palestine. Because Israel is so awful large that we're jealous. |
I only pointed out one factor. But the general trend is that you guys want every country to disintegrate.
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Mihai
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Bucharest, Romania
Jan 2000
time: 07:23
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Chechens deserve self-determination as any other nation. Remember "black are too stupid to take care of themselfs, therefore is better for them to be slaves and white people take care for them".
In 1991 Chechens had independence de facto just because Dudaiev was smart enough to gater loyal armed men around Grozni airport - there was a plane from Moscow full of russian paras. The paratoopers realised that they were sitting ducks and they will be all killed if they try to get out of the plane, so they refueled and went back. Some of you forget that Russia never recognise de jure Chechenya independence. That means that Russia just wait for the right time to crush the rebelion. With Damocle's sword over their country, moderate chechens had little chances to impose themself.
Accusation of terorism is a very powerful propaganda weapon this days. It is used by Russia in the Chechenya problem and by Israel in the palestinian problem. They says "they are terrorist and therefore they have no rights". Correct would be "they have rights, but because of the terrorist threats we had to limit those rights until the problem is resolved".
Mt. Everest is located at the border between China (Tibet) and Nepal.
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Ned
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of Aptos, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:23
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Mihai, Chechnya had its independence. Had they then behaved responsibly, they would still be independent. But instead of living peacefully with its neighbors, Chechnya then began to make war on its neighbor Dagestan. Russia had no choice but to do what it did.
The Chechen's also seem to have close ties to OBL and al Qaida. A lot of them were found in Afganistan.
In my opinion, so long as the war against terror goes on, Chechnya must be watched carefully. I presume at some time in the future, the Russians will grant Chechnya independence. But before it does, the Chechens will have to demostrate the capacity for self government. They haven't shown that capacity yet.
Last edited by Ned on 31-10-2002 at 20:37
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Sir Ralph
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Long live teh Schwampel!
Dec 2001
time: 06:23
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Ned, Chechnya never had independence, at least not in the XXth or XXIst centuries. What they had was some half-hearted autonomy, still under the thumb of the colonial power Russia. What means autonomy and how it is different from independence, is visible in the conflict between Palestinians and Israelis as well. Btw, I think I know Russia good enough, I have close familiar bonds to it and lived there for years, and I think that they never ever will grant Chechnya independence, if they aren't enforced to.
And IMHO it's wrong to say "the Chechens" have close ties to OBL/Al Qaida. That would be condemning a people for the deeds of some criminals, and would be the same like "the Afghans have supported OBL", "the Palestinians are terrorists" etc. What you mean are the Chechen separatists, and with that you are undoubtly right.
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Mihai
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Bucharest, Romania
Jan 2000
time: 07:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Ned
Mihai, Chechnya had its independence. Had they then behaved responsibly, they would still be independent. But instead of living peacefully with its neighbors, Chechnya then began to make war on its neighbor Dagestan. Russia had no choice but to do what it did.
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Sir Ralph already answer to that, but please tell us when and by what treaty Chechnya became independent.
As an example, Romania declared itself independent in 1877, but became (recognised de jure) independent in 1878 at Berlin conference.
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I presume at some time in the future, the Russians will grant Chechnya independence. But before it does, the Chechens will have to demostrate the capacity for self government. They haven't shown that capacity yet. |
Putin or any other russian officials didn't say a word about granting Chechnya independence in future. They consider Chechnya as part of Russian Federation.
Remember "black are too stupid to take care of themselfs, therefore is better for them to be slaves and white people take care for them"
Untill Russia demonstrate that they can control their mafia who is active in Russia and outside, we cannot grant Russia independece.
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Ned
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of Aptos, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:23
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I don't know the Russians as well as others, but I still suggest that given good behavior and time, Chechnya would have been granted some kind of formal autonomy or independence.
I really don't know how to distinguish between those Chechens who were with OBL, who invaded Dagestan, who blew up apartment buildings, who blew up parades and who conducted the recent assault in Moscow from the so-called "good" Chechens.
For example, back in the days of Dagestan, had the government mobilized against the Islamic army and fought with the Russians instead of with the fundamentalists, I would begin to agree with you.
The problem is similar to Arafat. He either is supporting terrorism or he is doing nothing effective to stop it. The Israeli's have produced proof that he was in fact supporting at least some of the terrorists.
I suspect the same proof can be found in Chechnya - linking the govrnment to the "terrorists."
As to Russia, I suspect most Russians believe they must occupy Chechnya because it is a threat to the peace and security of Russia. In the long run, I believe Russia will eventually let the Chechens go free in some form - autonomy at first. Independence in time.
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Ramo
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Austin, Texas, USA
Oct 1999
time: 23:23
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quote:
Ramo you really are a prize ass! |
I'm sure you read every single post in every single thread you post in (particularly when it's several pages long).  Sometimes, I have stuff to do outside of Apolyton, so only read the posts addressed to me. Imagine that.
quote:
Yes, it all looks highly suss...
However, there were also then insurgent strikes into Dagestan, numerous hijacks and lots of hostage taking as well - if you'd like to address those too... |
That's true, but the response was immensely disproportionate.
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Funny, last I heard the Hawai'ians only wanted Hawai'i? |
But pro-independence Chechens comprise a majority in Chechnya. Pro-independence Hawaiians don't comprise a majority in Hawaii.
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Ah well that's only because the US did such a good job colonising the place with imported labour and overrunning the local population... |
Yep. The subjugation of native Hawaiians was horrible, but for the most part is past the US gov't.
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That's why there was that coup in Fiji, and racial flare-ups in Bhutan. The natives are worried that the Indians and Nepalese respectively will become the majorities in their own countries and that they will lose the right to self determination in their own country - one reason why Israel doesn't want the right of return for Palestinian Refugees... |
Well, that's not quite the same thing. US businesses exploited the hell out of the native Hawaiians, which I see as the primary problem. On the other hand, people ought to be able to immigrate where they choose. Self-determination of nationalities is nonsense.
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By fighting amongst themselves and allowing the situation to arise... |
The armed opposition to the Chechen government wasn't very powerful until Russia started assisting it...
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But then a lot of that has also happened to the ethnic Russians in (or were in) Chechnya - I mean it doesn't take a rocket scientist to realise that if you've got Chechen Terrorists running around hacking the heads off kidnapped Westerners, they're probably not above meting out the stuff you mentioned on the 'invader' civilians... |
The ethnic Russians certain weren't treated very well by the Chechen government, but I haven't heard anything as serious as the Russian army's actions in Chechnya happening at a significant frequency to Russians living in Chechnya (IIRC, most moved to Russia after Chechnya broke off from Russia).
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Personally I think both parties are to blame to a greater or lesser extent - pointing the finger is not going to solve nothing and only serve to extend the suffering of the civilians of both sides in Chechnya. |
Agreed.
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I think the ultimate goal of Chechnya should be a period of autonomy followed by the possibility of peace. |
Err.. how could autonomy come before peace?
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The question is can they be trusted not to export their terror beyond their borders like they've done in the past? |
Russia should try declaring its intentions in annexing Chechnya absolutely over. After Lebed's deal, the question of independence was originally deferred until 2001 (before the peace ended again). As Mihai pointed out, this only insures the warlords will stay in power.
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Lord Merciless
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quote:
Originally posted by Ned
Sprayber, Yes, I believe what I say. What have we learned from history. No country can indefinitely occupy a hostile population. Something has to give. Historically, the hostile population was simply wiped out or sold into slavery. This is not a serious option for the Russians. What they have in Chechnya is another "Afghanistan." I think they will figure it out and make peace. But this peace will involve a plan to let Chechnya go free. |
Are you so sure that genocide or ethnic cleansing won't happen again? At least I can imagine the Russians carting off Chechens to some frozen wasteland in Siberia.
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29-10-2002 02:13
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