31-10-2002 02:36									#361
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Heres a non CNN site for the confimration of Fentanyl. Fez, wrong again.

http://my.aol.com/news/news_story.p...030155325280253

	31-10-2002 02:42									#362
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Yep, Fentanyl aerosol confirmed.

	31-10-2002 02:43									#363
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told you so

	31-10-2002 02:47									#364
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Told me what?

	31-10-2002 02:48									#365
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Nothing on Pravda yet. But of course that just confirms that the source is unreliable.
Does anyone know if there is an antidote for Fentanyl?

	31-10-2002 02:51									#366
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia Heres a non CNN site for the confimration of Fentanyl. Fez, wrong again. http://my.aol.com/news/news_story.p...030155325280253

I may be wrong... but this is even less bad than I was making out to be. BZ Gas is more dangerous than Fentanyl.

It only makes you look more stupid.

	31-10-2002 03:12									#367
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How do I lookmore stupid? Because I'm right and you're wrong?

	31-10-2002 03:23									#368
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Fez is always wrong

first tear gas
than BZ

	31-10-2002 03:23									#369
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quote: Does anyone know if there is an antidote for Fentanyl?

there is one.

	31-10-2002 03:26									#370
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If these guys had come into an American hospital comatose they'd have been administered the antidote as a matter of standard protocol. When the staff noticed that they awakened within a minute of being given the antidote they'd have alerted all hospitals in the vicinity to pool their supplies.

	31-10-2002 04:10									#371
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I think I heard Putin had 85% of the population supporting his way to "deal with the situation". Did anyone heard about this ?

	31-10-2002 04:22									#372
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia How do I lookmore stupid? Because I'm right and you're wrong?

I wondering did you or Marcus ever suggest it was this gas before? You are just wrong as I am until the Russians announced it. I was just following the opinion of a few experts.

You are never right.

Marcus go to hell... you know you are always wrong... you can't make up your damn mind...

	31-10-2002 04:23									#373
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quote: Originally posted by Pandemoniak I think I heard Putin had 85% of the population supporting his way to "deal with the situation". Did anyone heard about this ?

I wouldn't be surprised if that is the case.

	31-10-2002 04:34									#374
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The antidote for Fentanyl is the same as the antidote for any opiod, narcan or naltrexone. All opiods work by binding encephlan recepors in the brain. Encephlans are naturally occuring polypeptides used as neurotransmitters at certain synapses, especially those in the spinal cord and brain stem which modulate the transmission of pain signals to the brain. Narcan competitively inhibits the binding of opiods to these receptors blocking the effect of the opiod.

	31-10-2002 04:40									#375
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I think I was the first to report here that it was an anesthetic - I quoted a 17 year old hostage to that effect. I think the Germans and American doctors figured out that the boy was right and name the compound.

Saint Marcus, regarding Waco, I beleive they used tear gas. What they should have used, in hindsight, is the same gas as the Russians used. At least then some of the "hostages" would have lived.

The question is, what will governments do about using anesthetics in this fashion for the future? I suspect that governments will use them, but also learn from the mistakes of the Russians. They will provide adequate on-sight antidotes that will keep at least the hostages alive.

What are your views, Saint Marcu, Axi?

	31-10-2002 04:51									#376
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The actions were totally irresponsible on the part of the Russian authorities.

	31-10-2002 04:54									#377
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo The actions were totally irresponsible on the part of the Russian authorities.

What would you had done? Remember withdrawing from Chechnya wasn't an option.

	31-10-2002 04:54									#378
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quote: Originally posted by Fez I wondering did you or Marcus ever suggest it was this gas before? You are just wrong as I am until the Russians announced it. I was just following the opinion of a few experts. You are never right. Marcus go to hell... you know you are always wrong... you can't make up your damn mind...

I didnt suggest it first because I didnt have a clue. However, you wanted to seem smart, so you racked your brains and came up with the only gas you could think of: tear gas. Problem is, you were wrong.
I can't be wrong until I have made a statement. I didn't make a statement until I knew I was right.
Now since the Russians have announced it, I'm right and you're wrong.
This contradicts your statement that I am never right. Too bad Fez, wrong again.

'How many times must Fez be wrong, before he realizes he's wrong? The answer is blowing in the wind.'

Ned, the problem now, as someone else pointed out, is that the next time the terrorists will do something as terrible as this, they will bring either an antidote, or more realistically, they will bring gas masks. God knows how easy it is to get your hands on this stuff in Russia.

	31-10-2002 04:59									#379
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Well, toot toot, I, like all real Americans, don't give a damn about the blantant propaganda spouted by scumbag anarchist Islamic terrorist sympathizers.

	31-10-2002 05:06									#380
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quote: What would you had done?

Well, I'd start with attempts at negotiation, perhaps be more inquisitive about the nature of this mystery gas, and just maybe cooperate with the hospitals.

quote: Remember withdrawing from Chechnya wasn't an option.

Why wasn't it?

	31-10-2002 05:15									#381
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo Well, I'd start with attempts at negotiation,

That was being done. This was the result:

quote: The new demands were brought out of the theater just before midnight Friday by Anna Politkovskaya, a Russian journalist who is respected by Chechens for her reporting on the war and was called in by the rebels to mediate. Politkovskaya said the gunmen had told here they were "going to wait only a little while" before they started killing hostages.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...heater_raid_166

quote: and perhaps being more inquisitive about the nature of this mystery gas.

They already knew what the nature of the gas was. They deployed it.

quote: Why wasn't it?

It was an extremely unrealistic demand in the first place.

	31-10-2002 05:20									#382
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quote: That was being done. This was the result:

Interesing, I hadn't heard that.

quote: They already knew what the nature of the gas was. They deployed it.

I'm not sure how the Russian authorities could have bungled the situation so badly if there was no confusion over its identity.

quote: It was an extremely unrealistic demand in the first place.

Why?

	31-10-2002 05:23									#383
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Because people with moral fibre never negotitate with terrorists. The proper way to handle terrorists is to kill them. Capture a few to torture for information and then kill them and all they name.

	31-10-2002 05:25									#384
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And follow up with reprisals at a seven for one ratio.

	31-10-2002 05:34									#385
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quote: Because people with moral fibre never negotitate with terrorists.

Given the Russian government's actions (such as in Chechnya), I find it difficult to attribute any moral fiber to them.

quote: Capture a few to torture for information and then kill them and all they name.

And we all know people never tell lies when tortured.

quote: Well, toot toot, I, like all real Americans, don't give a damn about the blantant propaganda spouted by scumbag anarchist Islamic terrorist sympathizers.

Missed this gem.
I don't give a damn about propaganda coming from ****witted racist fascist non-Islamic terrorist sympathizers.

	31-10-2002 05:39									#386
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I would give them twenty minutes to surrender or I will start:

1) Launching a military operation consisting of hundreds of MiGs in precision strikes in Chechyna.

2) Order the building to be stormed in twenty minutes.

Lawrence, fine I concede... you wanted that? Yes I was wrong. But donīt make a big deal about... I assumed it was tear gas at first... but when casualities pilled up I started to suspect it was BZ gas, now it is this one I never heard of. However the Russians still did a fine rescue.

	31-10-2002 05:40									#387
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quote: And we all know people never tell lies when tortured.

I believe they have injections to prevent lies from being said.

	31-10-2002 05:43									#388
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quote: I believe they have injections to prevent lies from being said.

	31-10-2002 05:44									#389
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo

Or I believe Hollywood too much...

	31-10-2002 05:45									#390
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo I'm not sure how the Russian authorities could have bungled the situation so badly if there was no confusion over its identity.

It wasn't confusion about the nature of the gas that bungled the operation, it was an obsession with secrecy.

quote: Why?

The government was not in a position to negotiate on that point. That left little bargaining room. I am not oppossed to negotiating with terrorists as long as room for negotiation exists. The US has done it before and will likely do it again in the future.