30-10-2002 02:12									#331
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Alright, Axi, I give up. Is it that we, the American right, don't mind killing some innocent people in order to save the majority. Is that what you think?

Your attitude, Axi, sounds very Catholic to me. Under their doctrine, I believe, one cannot deliberately kill another in order to save lives.

	30-10-2002 04:07									#332
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quote: Then why doesn't ANY single person I've discussed this in Greece and any of the Euros in here say that it was ok to use gas? Why does it have to be you and your kind? Don't you see a dislocation here? Don't you recognise that the Americans are supporting the Russian authorities with too much of a nationalistic attitude? Why didn't you do the same with the Kursk case? Back then, all you had to say is that the Russians are incopetent and your navy would never have handled the case in such a way, etc... Isn't this somewhat bigoted, or not?

Bigoted? Wtf? The Kursk incident and this one are totally different, and thus the different opinions on how each was handled. The Kursk was lost due to an accident, and the Russian government/navy handled it rather poorly - blaming it on a mysterious western sub, witholding info from the families, misinformation, disorganization, refusing to ask for help. But in the end, it was just a terrible accident.

This was no accident. This was a terrorist attack. In attempting to rescue the Kursk, the Russian government did not have 30 armed hostiles to deal with (though I suppose the Arctic Sea could be considered hostile).

I think those that having voiced support (and some of that support has been partial - like, hmm, could have been done better perhaps, but they had to go in), several of whom were not right-wing Americans, are those who believe that given the risk of the terrorists killing all 700+ of the hostages, a raid that resulted in the deaths of 150 or so was acceptable.

My personal opinion is that the idea of using gas to knock out the terrorists was a good one (especially given the women terrorists who had bombs strapped to themselves and were ready to disperse amongst the hostages and detonate) but the concentration of the gas and the lack of info given to the doctors was a negative. In other words, it was a long way from perfect, but what the hell else were they supposed to do?

This was a no-win situation for the Russians. They couldn't give in (withdraw from Chechnya immediately) as that would be allowing terrorists to dictate government policy (even if the policy change is the right one, you do NOT allow thugs to hold a gun to your head and force you to make a change). They had to go in.

So, though it's terrible that so many died, it could quite possibly had been worse had they NOT used the gas prior to storming the theater. I am also not a special forces guy, so I can't sit here at my keyboard and say "well, geez, all they had to do was knock out those women with the bombs strapped on 'em with snipers and everything would have been fine."

Axi, if you're gonna throw around accusations of bigotry, you may wish to examine your own attitudes regarding Americans.

-Arrian

	30-10-2002 05:12									#333
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Are you people still arguing about this?

Get a damn clue. It was either 120 dead or 750 dead. If Russia took some of the words said in here it would 750 dead. They had to use that gas. Whatever damn excuse any of the radical left has here is invalid.

The deaths couldn't of been avoided because they were probably instantous due to the condition of many of the hostages.

BTW, Pravda is reporting that the gas used is BZ-Gas not Sarin Gas. A gas that the Russians have been experimenting for years. I would trust this over the word of a 17 year old.

http://english.pravda.ru/main/2002/10/28/38794.html

	30-10-2002 05:22									#334
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Its not purely BZ gas. That takes too long to act. It could be a mixture of BZ and sometihng else tho (I'm not a chemist so I dont know how that works)

http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/europ...hgas/index.html

	30-10-2002 05:24									#335
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Nope. Pravda and many analysts claim that is the only chemical the special forces had.

quote: Russian experts also believe that it was BZ gas. Doctor of Chemical Science Lev Fyodorov, said: “There can be no other variant. Our special forces have only this kind of gas. Theoretically, it is not a lethal gas if it affects healthy people. However, there were elderly people, children with weak organisms, and asthma-sick individuals among the hostages. This gas was lethal for them.”

	30-10-2002 05:25									#336
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There are rumors that the gas was opiod based. I didn't know that was possible. Most opiod molecules are too big to have a gaseous state. The shame is that there are excellent antidotes for the opiods like narcan and naltrexone. If the hospital had been able to prepare in advance they could have just given everybody a shot at the door. Doses could have been flown in from any nation in europe. Given the relative frequency of opiod overdoses I'd bet that every hospital in western europe has some stocked.

	30-10-2002 05:28									#337
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You're gonna believe Pravda over CNN? How do they know its the only chemical that they had? So then tell me how alpha was able to subdue the whole theatre in a short amount of time knowing that BZ takes some time to act and people notice its effect on them.

	30-10-2002 05:34									#338
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I would believe Pravda over CNN... and tell me I am crazy but that is how little I believe CNN. And what the hell do you know about BZGas? I admit I don't know crap but I will take Pravda's word for it over CNN and New York Times.

	30-10-2002 05:53									#339
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Well then I can't help you. I already said, I'm not a chemist, I'm just repeating what I read from a reliable source. I think that you are setting yourself up to be wrong again, but if thats ok with you. Fine.
We'll see how quickly Pravda changes its tune. And then you will still believe Pravda over CNN.

	30-10-2002 06:10									#340
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Well, my problem is not that some people hold this opinion with which I disagree; this is bound to happen. My problem is that there is a trend for those people to be US righties. They apply a policy of zero tolerance against "terrorism" to everything, distorting their world view.

F.e. the most pitiful excuse I've heard is that they could not prepare the hospitals and paramedics with info on the gas to be used and the required treatment and antidotes because there might be Chechen "spies" among the staff. All this while providing info about the gas could have saved lives, even 40 minutes after the assault. Yet if I were in an anti-terrorist frenzy, living in a country where spying on your neighbor is virtually required by the law, then perhaps I would be in a position to swallow all that bullshit more easily.

What is sure is that noone wants to be in the receiving end of a chemical attack. The next terrorists will bring gas masks with them. The ones after them will bring full body suits.

	30-10-2002 06:58									#341
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia Well then I can't help you. I already said, I'm not a chemist, I'm just repeating what I read from a reliable source. I think that you are setting yourself up to be wrong again, but if thats ok with you. Fine. We'll see how quickly Pravda changes its tune. And then you will still believe Pravda over CNN.

No. I think Pravda is a reliable source.... it named the gas before any other agency did. BZGas is the one used as it has a highly narcotic effect from what I hear from my chemistry teacher.

I finally back myself up with a source and you just dismiss it and say I am wrong.... just take my advice and stay the hell away from my posts...

	30-10-2002 08:19									#342
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quote: Originally posted by Fez Are you people still arguing about this? Get a damn clue. It was either 120 dead or 750 dead. If Russia took some of the words said in here it would 750 dead. They had to use that gas. Whatever damn excuse any of the radical left has here is invalid. The deaths couldn't of been avoided because they were probably instantous due to the condition of many of the hostages.

Sorry, Fez, that's bullshit. The doctors could have saved many of the hostages had they been given the antidotes. Whether or not the gas was needed is one thing, but even if it was, those people did NOT need to die. That was a product of an extreme lack of forsight and bungling on the part of the government.

	30-10-2002 09:10									#343
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove There are rumors that the gas was opiod based. I didn't know that was possible. Most opiod molecules are too big to have a gaseous state. The shame is that there are excellent antidotes for the opiods like narcan and naltrexone. If the hospital had been able to prepare in advance they could have just given everybody a shot at the door. Doses could have been flown in from any nation in europe. Given the relative frequency of opiod overdoses I'd bet that every hospital in western europe has some stocked.

Doc, an article I posted (on the previous page ) says it may be fentenyl - derived, which is apparently an opiate - like drug, but extremely powerful.

	30-10-2002 09:12									#344
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Well, you know, we just don't know exactly what they used. If it was BZ there is no specific antidote that I know of. With respect to the claim that it was some sort of opiod narcotic, all I can say is that as far as I know there are no narcotics that can be turned in to a pharmacologically active gas, but if there were I would presume that the usual opiod antidote would be effective.

	30-10-2002 12:28									#345
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More and more very disturbing information is starting to beceome revealed in this matter. Apart from the obvious failure to treat the gas poisoned, new information has revealed that the Chechnyans did not in fact intend to blow themselves up after all (like I've been saying from the start). The Chechyan president had called the terrorist leader and managed to presuade him to release the hostages. Now, the important point here is that the Russian authorities were aware of this call. They KNEW he had promised to release the hostages the next morning.

Also, witnesses have said some of the terrorists indeed had time to detonate their bombs but didn't.

I couldn't find a reliable source for this on the net (read it in the newspaper), but if this information indeed is correct, it seems the Russians stormed the theatre ONLY because they didn't want to be embarrassed. Giving the Chechen president credit for ending the hostage situation would not have helped them continue their efforts to take care of the Chechen problem.

	30-10-2002 17:54									#346
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quote: The deaths couldn't of been avoided because they were probably instantous due to the condition of many of the hostages.

if the Russians made public the gas they used, dozens could have been saved (since a good number of the 120 didn't die instantaniously, but in the hospital, where the doctors were powerless to do anything since they didn't understand what they were dealing with.

quote: BTW, Pravda is reporting that the gas used is BZ-Gas not Sarin Gas. A gas that the Russians have been experimenting for years.

it wasn't BZ. it probably was Feylon (sp?)

	30-10-2002 19:31									#347
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus it wasn't BZ. it probably was Feylon (sp?)

I have no idea what Feylon is. Is it an opiod derivative as some have suggested? If so then the antidote is widely available even in europe I believe.

	30-10-2002 19:37									#348
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Sorry, Fez, that's bullshit. The doctors could have saved many of the hostages had they been given the antidotes. Whether or not the gas was needed is one thing, but even if it was, those people did NOT need to die. That was a product of an extreme lack of forsight and bungling on the part of the government.

Unless of course, there is no antidote and the Russians know there is no antidote.

I do vaguely remembering Vladimir Putin apologising to the Nation along the lines of "forgive us". Perhaps he knows more about the gas than we do?

	30-10-2002 20:47									#349
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove I have no idea what Feylon is. Is it an opiod derivative as some have suggested? If so then the antidote is widely available even in europe I believe.

Fentenyl?

	30-10-2002 20:59									#350
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quote: Originally posted by Hurricane More and more very disturbing information is starting to beceome revealed in this matter. Apart from the obvious failure to treat the gas poisoned, new information has revealed that the Chechnyans did not in fact intend to blow themselves up after all (like I've been saying from the start). The Chechyan president had called the terrorist leader and managed to presuade him to release the hostages. Now, the important point here is that the Russian authorities were aware of this call. They KNEW he had promised to release the hostages the next morning. Also, witnesses have said some of the terrorists indeed had time to detonate their bombs but didn't. I couldn't find a reliable source for this on the net (read it in the newspaper), but if this information indeed is correct, it seems the Russians stormed the theatre ONLY because they didn't want to be embarrassed. Giving the Chechen president credit for ending the hostage situation would not have helped them continue their efforts to take care of the Chechen problem.

There is something very Alice and Wonderland about this post.

	30-10-2002 21:05									#351
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk Fentenyl?

Fentanyl I've heard of. It's a potent narcotic which can be administered by patch. I'd never heard of it being used as a gas. Like I said awhile back opiods are fairly big molecules composed of multiple organic ring structures. I don't know how it would be possible to turn something like that into a gas.

	30-10-2002 23:08									#352
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yes, I meant Fentanyl

	30-10-2002 23:09									#353
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ah, it is Fentanyl.

http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/europ....gas/index.html

let's see how Fez responds...first he said he knew for sure it was tear gas. then he said it was BZ. and as always, he's dead wrong.

Last edited by Saint Marcus on 30-10-2002 at 23:31

	30-10-2002 23:32									#354
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Nice save axi. You still sound like a paranoid bigot but I drop the adjective of loon.

	30-10-2002 23:59									#355
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Would there be permanent damage to the survivors from an overdose of this drug?

	31-10-2002 00:26									#356
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I don't know. As for dispersing the agent, perhaps it wasn't a gas per se but a vapor.

	31-10-2002 00:37									#357
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They say it was an aerosol.

	31-10-2002 00:42									#358
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Nice save axi. You still sound like a paranoid bigot but I drop the adjective of loon.

Your way too generous.

	31-10-2002 02:04									#359
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Since you (MOBIUS) seems to have migrated to this thread, can you respond to this post for me?

OK

It's a completely different situation, as the Russians withdrew completely and allowed the Chechens to mess things up of their own accord - whereas to this day, the Israelis are still extending their vice-like grip of W.B. and G.S. through their spider's web of illegal settlements choking out the heart of the Palestinian land...

Completely different!

If you can find me gloating about the Israelis 'deserving it' and/or justifying suicide bombings as a legitimate means of retribution in a thread about Israeli civilian casualties in Israel, feel free to dredge it up and I will duly apologise - as I have done to St. Marcus...

Hell, I'm on a roll - might as well kill two birds with one stone...

From what you're saying, there should be plenty of examples to choose from...

	31-10-2002 02:16									#360
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Oh great! Now it's possible to inhale yet another type of narcotic! If the gangs ever figure out how to reproduce this stuff and market it the streets of America will be covered with corpses.