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Ned
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of Aptos, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:23
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What is your bottom line, St. Marcus? Are you suggesting there was some other way of ending this standoff without an assault by special forces? IIRC, the last time these folks captured a lot of Russians, they let the terrorists go free. (I don't recall whether they gave into to their political demands.) But that action only incented this action, which is much worse.
As to the gas used, a 17 year old hostage was just on CNN. He said the gas was the same as the gas one uses to knock people out for operations. This could help explain the vomiting. I understand that one must not have food or water for at least 12 hours prior to being anesthetized. I also understand that the gas is very dangerous itself, which is why one needs a separate expert to administer the gas for operations.
Dumping the gas wholesale into a theater was a very dangerous thing to do. But, it seemed at the time, necessary.
Last edited by Ned on 29-10-2002 at 00:38
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Lord Merciless
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They need enough dosis to knock a 150kg terrorist, but that dosis may well kill a 70 years old with heart problems. I bet the terrorists are physically certainly tougher than most theater goers.
As for normal asnesthetics, there are always 3% of patients who will suffer some kind of side effects despite the recommendation about inhibiting food intakes and having received the correct dosis.
I think the only blunder here was that they didn't tell doctors quickly enough about the type of the gas. I understand why they didn't tell the doctors before the assault because there might be traitors, like that policeman they recently arrested.
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Capt Dizle
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The Life and Work of Saint Markos
In the Acts of the Apostles we learn that Markos , the son of Maria, lived in Jerusalem during the early formative years of the Church. His mother was one of the first members of the Church, and it appears that she was a person of means. This can be assumed from the description of her home which was decorated with columns, and which had large facilities capable of receiving great numbers of the followers of Jesus (Acts 12. 12).
This is the same house where Petros met his other brethren, after being miraculously freed by the angel of God from jail, and where he baptized Markos into the new faith. Petros, in his first letter (A' Epistle 5.13) refers to Markos as his "son", although there is not any apparent relationship between them. In Colossians 4.10 it is shown that Markos was the "nephew of Barnabas", a levite from Cyprus.
The first direct mentioning of Markos is in the Acts 12. 25. There, prior to the description of the first apostolic voyage of Paul and Barnabas, the two return to Antiochia after delivering supplies sent by the Christian brethren to the Christians of Jerusalem. There with them was "Ioannis who is also called Markos". Given that the assistance had been send at the time when Emperor was Claudius Ceasar, the trip of Markos to Antiochia took place during the 15th or 16th year from the Resurrection of our Lord.
A little later, directed by the Holy Spirit, Paul and Barnabas, taking with them Marcos, arrive to Salamis, Cyprus, where after they cross the island arrive to the city of Paphos. There takes place the conversion to Christianity of the first Roman official, Sergius Paulus.
Markos accompanied Paul and Barnabas in their second missionary journey, and again followed Barnabas when he visited Cyprus to teach about Christ. More information about Markos comes to us in the letters of St. Paul.
Ten or twelve years later, as we read in the Epistle of Paul to the Colossians (4.10) and again in Philemon (6.24) Markos is with Petros in Rome, among the few who stood by the Apostle during those trying days.
Our ecclesiastical tradition has it that Markos came to Alexandria in the year 42 and established the Church of Alexandria, and was its first bishop for 22 years.
Markos died the death of a martyr while he was being pulled through the streets of Alexandria by a pagan mob, and was buried in a nearby village.
In the year 828, Venetian merchants transported his relics to Venice, and since then he has been considered as the protector saint of this city.
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Capt Dizle
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Has anyone a pagan mob handy?
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Lord Merciless
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quote:
Originally posted by Saint Marcus
yes. some people would have died anyway, even with simple tear gas. BUT NOT 117 PEOPLE!!!
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Details are still sketchy. We don't know about the demographic makeup of the people died. But I predict the following:
- Elderly people and people with dangerous health conditions will be disproportionaly largely represented.
- Gas distribution should be non-uniform. People from certain locations in the auditorium were more likely among the dead.
As I said before, anesthetics are dangerous.
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Boris Godunov
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Portland, OR
Aug 2001
time: 00:23
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Turns out the doctors are saying the deaths could have been avoided had the Russian government provided them with antidote or told them which antidote to use to treat the victims:
http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/europ....gas/index.html
quote:
MOSCOW, Russia (CNN) -- Calls are growing in Russia for an investigation into why doctors were not provided an antidote to the gas used during an operation to free hostages held at a Moscow theatre.
Captors demanding an end to the war in Chechnya held about 800 hostages for 58 hours, killing two before Russian forces stormed the building early on Saturday.
Moscow's chief doctor said 115 hostages died from health problems stemming from the "knockout" gas pumped into the building to subdue the Chechen rebels just before the raid.
Alexei Arbatov, head of the Russian parliament's defence committee, told CNN: "I blame the authorities for not providing the doctors with antidotes and instructions on how to use them.
"That was certainly a great blunder, and many people are paying for that blunder with their health -- and some even with their life," he said.
Because Russian authorities refused to tell doctors what was used, doctors spent the first few hours testing various antidotes before they found something that worked. The situation has angered doctors and the public.
About 400 people remained hospitalised on Monday.
Anguished relatives have descended on Moscow hospitals, begging for news of their kin, while others have been scouring the city morgues.
Tatiana Lukashova's 26-year-old daughter, Masha Panova, was a hostage and is now missing.
Lukashova saw a broadcast on the ORT television station Saturday that showed her daughter lying on a mattress in a hospital corridor with an oxygen mask on.
"But we didn't hear what hospital it was, and our search through all the hospitals was in vain," Lukashova told Reuters.
One doctor expressed frustration at being powerless to help survivors. "I saw no gunshot wounds at all. Those who died had swallowed their vomit or their tongue or their hearts had stopped," he told the Nezavisimaya Gazet daily.
"If only we had known beforehand. If they had told us that... it might have been a bit different."
U.S. officials believe the gas may have contained a chemical building block also found in heroin or morphine-based agents.
"Certainly there was a huge overdose because those who used it had to guarantee that even the terrorists sitting away from ventilation hatches would not have a chance to activate and explode the devices that they had," Arbatov said.
Medical officials pointed out that the hostages had been without food and drink for almost three days, and were virtually motionless in their chairs -- making them more vulnerable to the side effects of any gas used.
"All [this] took the toll on their physical and mental condition and clearly made them much more vulnerable to the agent," Arbatov said.
Survivor Andrei Naumov told CNN: "The gas used was without smell or taste and was invisible. Soon after it was pumped in, I lay on the floor and remember nothing after that -- I woke up in hospital.
"I think the terrorists were really serious about killing us. They knew they could not get away and they wanted to kill all the hostages.
"I will always remember that day, and always the remember the people who saved us. I thank them."
Moscow declared a day of mourning Monday, and President Vladimir Putin expressed his sorrow over the hostage deaths.
"We must remember those by uniting," he said.
But he also issued a defiant message to any others considering launching a similar action in Russia, telling government members: "International terrorism is increasingly cruel... if anyone tries to apply such means to our country, Russia will reply with measures adequate to the threats in all the locations of the terrorists, their organisations or their ideological and financial instigators."
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So even if one posits the Russians had no choice but to use the gas, they certainly should have provided the doctors with the antidote or let them know what antidote to use. Heads should roll over this f*ck up. 
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Guynemer
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Merciless
They need enough dosis to knock a 150kg terrorist, but that dosis may well kill a 70 years old with heart problems. I bet the terrorists are physically certainly tougher than most theater goers.
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Rest assured, a dose of gas large enough to knockout a 150kg terrorist would strike dead virtually every single person who has contributed to this thread.
I'll just assume you meant a 150lb terrorist. :pedant:
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Dr Strangelove
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quote:
Originally posted by Ned
What is your bottom line, St. Marcus? Are you suggesting there was some other way of ending this standoff without an assault by special forces? IIRC, the last time these folks captured a lot of Russians, they let the terrorists go free. (I don't recall whether they gave into to their political demands.) But that action only incented this action, which is much worse.
As to the gas used, a 17 year old hostage was just on CNN. He said the gas was the same as the gas one uses to knock people out for operations. This could help explain the vomiting. I understand that one must not have food or water for at least 12 hours prior to being anesthetized. I also understand that the gas is very dangerous itself, which is why one needs a separate expert to administer the gas for operations.
Dumping the gas wholesale into a theater was a very dangerous thing to do. But, it seemed at the time, necessary. |
That can't be right. The gases used in general anesthesia require a concentration too high to be effective via administration into the general atmosphere of a room, particularily a room as big as a theater. Even if they could pipe that much in, it would take so long to build up an effective dose that people would become wary before it took effect.
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28-10-2002 22:57
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